Anime question

[Zeke365]

Why is it when you watch anime that all the characters are Memorable and no matter if you finished an anime or saw one long ago that makes you feel nostalgic like you were on the journey with them but in American cartoons, animated movies, live action movies and others don't leave the same impression as anime?

[skreyola]

Character memorability comes largely from story and character depth. You see more of that, on average, with the typical anime than you do with the typical western cartoon.

[Nate]

Let's generalize entertainment based on a couple of examples: the thread.

No, anime is not "on average" more deep and profound than western cartoons. Unless you have personally watched every anime and every western cartoon in existence you cannot make that claim. Just because your pool of experience is extremely limited means nothing. Transformers Prime and Justice League Unlimited as just two examples are far more deep and interesting with cool storylines than Crayon Shin-Chan or Chi's Sweet Home.

I'm not even bashing those anime, they're good shows, they just don't have deep characters or story.

[shooraijin]

Nate makes an excellent point. There are plenty of throw-away anime series and most of them don't make it to these shores because they're throw-away. What you see here is, frankly, selection bias.

[Nate]

The one thing I will admit anime has over western cartoons is that anime tends to have a lot less stand-alone episodes. Reasons for this is that especially in the past, cartoons would often favor stand-alone episodes for the purposes of syndication, so channels could air whatever episodes they wanted without having to worry about storylines. This is why a lot of older cartoons don't have more than maybe a two-parter here or there, and the status quo is usually upheld pretty strongly.

But again, this is a generalization. Especially with Cartoon Network having hit it big and not worrying about syndication, shows have been more free to do storylines over seasons. And of course there's plenty of anime that don't have overarching storylines in their shows.

[EventualDay]

There are some American shows that are generally considered deeper, or at least ones with more of an impact: Avatar: The Last Airbender and Steven Universe, for example, and even My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. But in my opinion there's just more variety in anime and manga since there tend to be more genres. It's not like there are thousands of josei anime, but you could definitely name a few; and there are various types of seinen and shoujo that adults enjoy. Most of the American cartoons I'm familiar with are technically targeted toward either young children or a somewhat particular type of adult.

For example, most people think of South Park, The Simpsons, and American Dad as examples of typical adult cartoons, but they can put a high emphasis on crude humor or otherwise very adult jokes. Not to mention, they're mostly episodic--maybe that style also isn't something where you feel like you can connect easily to characters?
(Ah, Nate you beat me to it... very nice )

[Zeldafan2]

If I recall correctly, more anime are made a year than cartoons that end up aired on American television every year. As a result, there may be times in an individual year where more high-quality anime are made than high quality western-cartoons. However, as Nate and Shooraijin pointed out, it's making the issue a bit too simple to say anime are generally better than western cartoons. The majority of the anime that gets recognition in the States is generally of high quality, while the bad stuff falls out the wayside.

I do notice that especially recently, western cartoons have been favoring action/fantasy/scifi-comedies when it comes to western cartoons, though a number of them (such as Steven Universe and Adventure Time) tend to have overarching plots. However, you don't find a lot of western-made animation that's centrally played for drama in cartoons in recent years (the closest you normally get is DC's animated movies).

Since you referred to ALL western media, however . . . I'd say that category is a bit too broad for anyone to reasonably generalize.

[skreyola]

The one thing I will admit anime has over western cartoons is that anime tends to have a lot less stand-alone episodes.

When I spoke of deeper story, this is a large part of what I meant. And character depth is highly correlated to story depth.

[Nate]

When I spoke of deeper story, this is a large part of what I meant. And character depth is highly correlated to story depth.

Not really, no. You can have a cool story but with a completely boring character, and you can have really interesting characters but not much of a story.

[skreyola]

When I spoke of deeper story, this is a large part of what I meant. And character depth is highly correlated to story depth.

Not really, no. You can have a cool story but with a completely boring character, and you can have really interesting characters but not much of a story.

Possible, yes, but they generally go together rather predictably. It's difficult to put the one that's good on display without the other being strong enough to balance it.

[Kraavdran]

I was actually talking about this to a friend a while back (going back to the original post).

I feel like that is some inherent differences between western shows and anime. And, like Nate mentioned, part of that might be because I only watch the "good/marketable" anime that makes the trip overseas. Also, I don't watch much western tv.

However, I stopped watching much western tv because it was really boring to me. And, don't get me wrong, I still try to check out new western shows. I was actually recently impressed by a show called "Forever." But, ultimately, I do enjoy more anime (on average) than I do western shows. I realize that it might just be selection bias, but I think that there are some inherent differences (based on averages based on availability) that do make anime more... enjoyable (for a lack of a better word) for me.

I'm sure that we could go into cultural differences, and that might be enlightening (specifically, the individualistic culture in America compared to the community-based culture in Japan). And that might provide some insight on to the basic setup and psyche of an anime. But, I don't know enough about Japanese culture to make proper speculations.

The thing that draws me to anime is the relatable characters. They are all people with struggles. And, they often show the internal dialogue of certain characters so that we (the audience) can understand them a bit better. I think that that's what made Death Note so intriguing. Of course, not all anime do this. But, at least in my experience with anime (200+ entries), I find the characters more interesting and relatable than I do for almost any given American series that I try out.

I realize that is just explaining the phenomenon. I don't know if I can give you a solid "this is why the characters are more relatable and interesting." Internal dialogue can't be the only reason. Culture can't be the only reason either. Any further insights would be nice.

One possibility anime might have over the average western show is simply the fact that each character is quite unique. It is a stereotype that anime characters have ridiculously large swords/weapons/etc and unnatural hair color. Not to mention the often very different facial animation (for example, large color-coordinated eyes) and clothing. I think that this gives anime an edge when it comes to being remembered. The American shows that I have watched sometimes make it hard to identify which character is who because they wear similar clothing, don't have memorably large swords/weapons/etc, have similar hair color, and have fairly plain faces (no large eyes that help you identify them). So, each anime character, at least for me, stands out in my mind much more because they look quite unique. And, in anime where this is not the case (Knights of Sidonia, for example), the characters don't have a memorable/nostalgic feel to them.

:/ Sorry that this post became so long.

[Nate]

One possibility anime might have over the average western show is simply the fact that each character is quite unique.

[Kraavdran]

Nate, if you check the remainder of the paragraph you quoted me on, it will be clear that I was talking about their costumes, hair, eyes, and weaponry. I think that your post actually reinforces that concept. While their facial animation looks similar, they are very unique characters due to their clothing. It would be hard to mistake one for the other.

[skreyola]

I was thinking about this some more, and it reinforced my notion that characters tend to be deeper in anime than in western animation. Though there are a few notable examples where there's a deep story, most of what we put out is episodic and, more specifically, contains character details primarily when those details will serve the plot/jokes of that specific episode, and they often disappear after the episode. In anime (what I've seen), characters all have distinct likes and dislikes and traits, and they are present even when the episode doesn't need them to support a story point or joke. In one of our cartoons, you'll see things relating to a hobby only when that hobby is part of the episode. In most anime I've seen, you can tell someone has a hobby many episodes before the hobby is the focus of an episode.
I'll admit to some selection bias, but I also know how shows are generally done in the States, and attention to character details is usually not a strong part of the production process.

[Kraavdran]

Skreyola,

I hadn't considered looking at it as episodic vs cumulative. That makes quite a bit of sense. Even small things like hobbies and character traits add depth to a character, but when they are tossed aside for the sake of a joke or plot, the character becomes more shallow.

Come to think of it, some of my favorite western shows do a fairly good job of not letting that happen. Very good insight!

[Thunderscream872]

I personally don't seen one as producing more memorable characters and the other.

One possibility anime might have over the average western show is simply the fact that each character is quite unique.

I'm gonna have to partially disagree there. While some shows like Cowboy Bebop, Steins;Gate, Darker Than Black, Canaan, and Princess Jellyfish all have very different characters; shows such as Sword Art Online, Attack on Titan, Blue Exorcist, Seraph of the End, Guilty Crown, Beyond the Boundary, Angel Beats, and Date A Live have casts that are, for the most part, unoriginal, overused, and I feel like can be easily interchanged for the most part. Now, I'm not saying those are bad shows (Blue Exorcist is one of my favorite anime), but I feel like the characters (whether I like them or not) are predictable, which takes away from there memorability.

Now, in those shows I mentioned, it isn't so much that the whole cast is overdone. I certainly don't expect a big cast of entirely original and unique characters in everything that I watch--I get that that is pretty much impossible to pull off. My main problem with these is with the MC.

Take Kirito (SAO), Eren (AoT), Rin (Blue Exorcist), and Otonashi (Angel Beats) for example. I'm not gonna examine them all, but they're basically stereotypical anime MC's. There's nothing about any of them that is incredibly unique or draws attention to them. Instead the attention is drawn to all the supporting characters, who have some more interesting personality traits; however never really get any development beyond needing the MC to bail them out of a rough situation here and there. Imagine if these were the MCs of these shows:

Klein (SAO)
Mikasa, Levi, and/or Jean (AoT)
Izumo or Arthur (BE)
Anyone in Angel Beats other than Otonashi and Hinata (I feel like he would just be another cookie cutter MC as well).

I think it would make the shows much more unique. I'm not sayin I dislike the current MCs (Rin especially is awesome), but they just feel overdone, predictable, and tiresome. What I would prefer to see more anime do is have more than one character get lots of attention, sort of like the way Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead handle their casts.

All of that to say that one major thing I feel like anime has going against it is that you get a crap load of recycled characters from anime to anime, and while these characters might be enjoyable, they never get the time or development they deserve and are left more as pretty ornaments for people to cosplay as; because the MC (who is likely a short, 14-15 year old male with a boy band hair cut) is getting his story about how he has special powers and accidentally groped the transfer student told for the millionth time.

I'm not saying this is representative of all anime by any means, but it represents a pretty big portion from what I can tell.

The American shows that I have watched sometimes make it hard to identify which character is who because they wear similar clothing,

So, school uniforms = variety?

...sorry I couldn't resist...

[Kraavdran]

I personally don't seen one as producing more memorable characters and the other.

One possibility anime might have over the average western show is simply the fact that each character is quite unique.

I'm gonna have to partially disagree there. While some shows like Cowboy Bebop, Steins;Gate, Darker Than Black, Canaan, and Princess Jellyfish all have very different characters; shows such as Sword Art Online, Attack on Titan, Blue Exorcist, Seraph of the End, Guilty Crown, Beyond the Boundary, Angel Beats, and Date A Live have casts that are, for the most part, unoriginal, overused, and I feel like can be easily interchanged for the most part. Now, I'm not saying those are bad shows (Blue Exorcist is one of my favorite anime), but I feel like the characters (whether I like them or not) are predictable, which takes away from there memorability.

I was referencing the costuming and other identifying features (physically) of anime characters in a given show. I wasn't referencing the personality (although, even in those shows, we do see more thought than the average western show... at least in my opinion. Just because they are cliched/overused/unoriginal doesn't make them less deep).

In terms of personality, I have to admit that you make really good points. I might defend Kirito (I think he was a fairly good character in terms of depth. Although, there was less explicit development and you had to watch him and his actions more.) Granted, they could have done much more... but they focused on his relationship more (which, again, I'll defend because it was a different take on anime main characters only developing a relationship at the end of an anime). Also, I think that the fact that Kirito was a little cliched is because anime tends to be fairly deep (although, of course, these shounen anime don't go as far in depth) and so, there are many recurring characters who are of similar depth, but seem less deep because we have seen "that type" of character before.

No disagreement about Eren. That anime is less focused on characters and more focused on mystery/situations/fear. Which, I think, has depth. Just not character depth. I haven't watched Blue Exorcist, so I can't comment on that.

I guess, what I'm getting at there is that the main character's depth doesn't necessarily mean quality (or even memorability). So, even if I try to defend specific characters, ultimately it might boil down to the fact that the authors have decided to focus less on a given character and more on the supporting characters, story, themes, etc..

I think it would make the shows much more unique. I'm not sayin I dislike the current MCs (Rin especially is awesome), but they just feel overdone, predictable, and tiresome. What I would prefer to see more anime do is have more than one character get lots of attention, sort of like the way Game of Thrones or The Walking Dead handle their casts.

I think that you will find that Seinen anime tend to focus more on an individual character. Although I have not watched many Seinen anime, most people explain that they are more complicated and/or go more indepth. From the few that I have watched, that seems to be the case. I've not watched The Walking Dead, so I can't really comment on it. I dropped Game of Thrones before finishing the first episode because I really didn't like it (I thought that the characters were unimpressive/boring, the story seemed ok but not great... and the deal breaker was a scene involving a room full of naked women). But, that might be a different topic (I know many people dearly enjoy that show, so I don't really want to argue that it wasn't good... especially since I have not watched much of it).

But, also, I think that this topic brings us back to what we were talking about in the thread "mature anime without (im)mature content". Particularly, in reference to what Miyazaki said about the anime industry. He says that it is "full of otaku". In addition to some conjecture on my part, I can kinda see how this would make characters more unoriginal/cliched and lack depth. So, I can't really defend all anime. I mostly work in generalizations of things I have watched in the past (to be honest, I don't enjoy most of the anime that are coming out new now).

All of that to say that one major thing I feel like anime has going against it is that you get a crap load of recycled characters from anime to anime, and while these characters might be enjoyable, they never get the time or development they deserve and are left more as pretty ornaments for people to cosplay as; because the MC (who is likely a short, 14-15 year old male with a boy band hair cut) is getting his story about how he has special powers and accidentally groped the transfer student told for the millionth time.

I agree with this quite a bit.

The American shows that I have watched sometimes make it hard to identify which character is who because they wear similar clothing,

So, school uniforms = variety?

...sorry I couldn't resist...

[/quote]
Well, to be honest, yes. Again, in most anime where the characters wear school uniforms, there are other distinguishing features. Hair, facial expressions, other clothing accessories, drastically different eyes, and the like definitely help. Consider Angel Beats (with the exception of one character who looks like the main character), for example. Or Assassination Classroom. Or even Bleach. I really think that the medium of animation allows for much easier variation in character looks than live-action.

[Nate]

I certainly don't expect a big cast of entirely original and unique characters in everything that I watch--I get that that is pretty much impossible to pull off.

Legend of Galactic Heroes did it.

[skreyola]

The American shows that I have watched sometimes make it hard to identify which character is who because they wear similar clothing,

So, school uniforms = variety?

...sorry I couldn't resist...

Surprisingly, yes.
In addition to having different hair colors, characters in the same school in an anime tend to each wear their uniforms in a slightly different way. Part of this is a variety of body types, and part of this is character personality. Japanese school uniforms appear often to have optional components (e.g., blazer, sweater, or neither), and some characters tie their ties or their bows differently.