What is a 'stumbling block?'

[TheMewster]

I think I'm beating TopazRaven at her own game, lol.

On a more serious note, what is a stumbling block? I think I may have one over the word's definition. God bless you guys!:eh:

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

A stumbling block is anything that impedes yours or someone else's walk with God - be it material or non-material things. A stumbling block is something that causes people to be tempted - eg. having a beer in the presence of a drunk.

[TopazRaven]

Curses! How dare you challange me!?!? Just kidding. xD Yeah, I'm actually kind of curious about this one myself, so I'll let everyone else answer you for this one.

[K. Ayato]

W4J pretty much hit the nail on the head. A stumbling block is anything (or sometimes anyone) that can cause a Believer to get offended or confused in their personal walk with the Lord. Whether or not something is a stumbling block depends a lot on the person's level of maturity and overall perception.

W4J brought up a good example: alcohol consumption. For some Believers, drinking alcohol is no problem. For someone new in the faith, this may upset them and/or confuse them in regards to Christian living. Add in the possibility that they struggle with drinking and voila! You've created a stumbling block for the new Believer.

It takes discernment and careful thinking. Paul (paraphrasing here) put it this way, saying that if eating meat would cause his brothers and sisters in Christ to stumble, then he would stop eating meet when with them.

[TheMewster]

Yeah, but if there's nothing wrong with eating meat in general, what's the harm in that? Aren't you showing the truth and the true you?

[TopazRaven]

Yes, but I think the point is to be respectful to your brothers and sisters in Christ. If you are doing something in front of them that offends, upsets or causes them to stumble you aren't be very considerate of their feelings.

[K. Ayato]

You're missing the point. When Paul wrote that, in that particular culture there would be meat sold in the marketplaces that had previously been offered as a sacrifice in an idol's temple. Paul knew that meat was meat, as you said. However, also note that this statement he gave about eating meat was in his letter addressed to the church in Corinth, a place overflowing with confusion and chaos. Paul was making it clear about whether or not it was all right for a Christian of that time to eat meat that was sacrificed to idols. He knew the idol was just a statue and in eating the meat, he wasn't partaking in any form of idol worship. BUT, he also knew within the Corinthian church that there were those who were newer in the faith and currently had a problem with it. On the one hand, yes we want to be salt and light to the world out there. On the other hand, you want to do your best to be at peace with fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and not allow anything to come between them and their personal walk. The idea of stumbling blocks occurs with Believers.

[Rusty Claymore]

Three easy steps to create your very own stumbling block!
1) Get a cinderblock or any other large chunk of stone or wood.
2) Place your prefered object in sibling's doorway early in the morning.
3) Wait a day. If your sibling is normal, the next morning you will have your very own stumbling block in your doorway!

XD Sorry, couldn't help it... Anyways, a stumbling block is literally something that makes someone stumble or fall. Could be anything from alcohol exposure to exposing a little more skin than nescessary.

[TheMewster]

Lol, Rustyclaymore! But thanks guys for answering this!

[Kaligraphic]

To clarify, it's not so much to stumble in the sense of "Oh, I had a drink and I wasn't supposed to," but in the sense of "God hates me now," or "Now I've offended the gods and should go worship Athena instead."

If a new believer at that time had eaten meat dedicated to a local god without strong faith, then if something bad happened, they could see it as a sign of that god's displeasure. In such a case, they could well be pulled back to the worship of their previous gods, or their faith in the Christian God at least severely weakened. That's a stumbling block.

It's not just ordinary temptation or such.

[Okami]

I think it's also necessary to point out that sometimes people use other words to mean "stumbling block." Especially in terms of recovery, it seems. I for one will often be caught using the word "trigger" to mean some sort of stumbling block.

[Nate]

A stumbling block, despite what some people may tell you, is not anything that offends you or upsets you.

For example, if I was to crack open a beer around someone and they were like "Drinking alcohol is a sin!" that is not a stumbling block. And I have no obligation to stop drinking that beer.

However. If I was to be around someone and cracked open a beer and they went "Drinking alcohol is a sin but...drinking beer sounds really awesome, I should have one," then now I am a stumbling block, and I should not drink beer around that person. I am tempting someone else into what they believe to be a sin. Again, if they are merely offended by it, then it's not a stumbling block. It is only when they are tempted into doing something they believe is sinful by my actions that I become a stumbling block.

[Maledicte]

Similar to what Nate said, a similar stumbling block would be if you were drinking alcohol around someone who's had a history of alcoholism. Even worse, especially, if you knew they'd had a problem with it before. Basically, we should be considerate around our brethren so as to not cause sin or spiritual distress. This doesn't mean we have to tiptoe around people for fear of maybe perhaps probably offending them, but to realize that our actions can affect other people, be receptive to their feelings on the issue, and to behave accordingly.

[ShiroiHikari]

Offending someone isn't a sin.

[aliveinHim]

Clothing can be a stumbling block. That's why I dress nicely and conservatively. There are some girls who I know who are professing believers and in the summer, they wear basically scraps for clothing. I feel badly for starting to doubt their salvation because I don't see why any believer would want to dress so seductively in front of other brothers in Christ.

[TheSubtleDoctor]

Nate gave a great example.

If you want a lexical definition, then I'll have a go:

stumbling block - (n.) a person whose words or actions influence and/or assist another person in committing some action that violates their moral conscience (i.e. that they believe is a sinful act).

If this definition is correct, then it sort of puts the burden on us to "play it safe" around many of our Christian brethren in terms of things we allow ourselves to do, since we can't know the contents of the various moral consciences of the people whom we influence.

To put things in terms of Nate's example: many times we can't know if the person we open the beer in front of will want a drink, even though they may believe drinking is wrong. So, in order to avoid being a stumbling block, it's probably best not to drink in front of young and/or impressionable Christians whose feelings on the subject we don't know.

[ShiroiHikari]

You doubt their salvation because of their clothes...?

I don't know what to say to that.

[K. Ayato]

Clothing can be a stumbling block. That's why I dress nicely and conservatively. There are some girls who I know who are professing believers and in the summer, they wear basically scraps for clothing. I feel badly for starting to doubt their salvation because I don't see why any believer would want to dress so seductively in front of other brothers in Christ.

I know exactly how you feel. I remember one time I was wearing a tunic with a V-neck and a cami underneath for layering (plus the neckline of the tunic was low). Still, when I arrived early for a young adult Bible study, I was concerned. The group consisted of a lot of guys, and I wanted to make sure the neckline of my outfit was still in the safe zone, plus there was also a V in the back. I had a jacket with me in case I'd have to just slip it over my shoulders or go all the way and zip it up completely. I pulled aside one of the ladies and asked her to critique my outfit. She said it was safe .

Granted, not every girl professing to be a Christian wants an honest critique of their outfit, but it really helped me that night.

[mechana2015]

You doubt their salvation because of their clothes...?

I don't know what to say to that.

I do, but it's not very polite.

EDIT: After a little bit of thought one of the simplist ways to state it would be this.

There is no way for females dress that will not distract men. Ever. Don't use that as a determinant of someones spiritual state.

[TopazRaven]

Clothing can be a stumbling block. That's why I dress nicely and conservatively. There are some girls who I know who are professing believers and in the summer, they wear basically scraps for clothing. I feel badly for starting to doubt their salvation because I don't see why any believer would want to dress so seductively in front of other brothers in Christ.

No offense, but what kind of statment is that? You think they aren't saved because of the way they dress? That sounds pretty judgemental. Just because you dress more conservativley doesn't mean you are any better then them.

[TopazRaven]

Clothing can be a stumbling block. That's why I dress nicely and conservatively. There are some girls who I know who are professing believers and in the summer, they wear basically scraps for clothing. I feel badly for starting to doubt their salvation because I don't see why any believer would want to dress so seductively in front of other brothers in Christ.

No offense, but what kind of statment is that? You think they aren't saved because of the way they dress? That sounds pretty judgemental. Just because you dress more conservativley doesn't mean you are any better then them. And this is coming from another person who dresses modestly by the way.

[Nate]

Well guess I should speak my mind on this too. I hope I don't come off as too harsh, but...

I feel badly for starting to doubt their salvation because I don't see why any believer would want to dress so seductively in front of other brothers in Christ.

Maybe they enjoy wearing those clothes. Maybe they think they're stylish, or comfortable. The point is, I really doubt they're doing it to inspire lustful thoughts. Because let me tell you, speaking as a male? I could lust after a girl wearing three layers of clothing. It's just how I am, and I'm sure there's other males just like me.

But here's the problem, and it ties into what is being discussed in Kitchan's thread about Christians and hypocrisy. You're judging them. You said yourself you are starting to doubt their salvation. The Bible speaks very clearly about judging. The reason why is you consider yourself to be better than those other girls. You even admit it yourself. "I'm not like THOSE girls, I dress modestly and properly." You're arrogant. Prideful.

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: "God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get."

But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

You're becoming the Pharisee who says "God, thank you that I'm not like THOSE girls, I dress conservatively and modestly." This is, of course, a bad thing. I can't speak for those girls. I haven't seen them. I don't know their hearts. But I would never judge the status of their souls by how they dress. Everyone does things that others look at and disagree with. Even the people I disagree with, I don't think they're not saved. I think they're misguided, or brainwashed...but that doesn't put their salvation into question.

Here's what it boils down to. Are we saved by grace? Are we saved by works? If we're saved by grace, then it doesn't matter how they dress. They are saved, and no action they can take will make them unsaved, or put their salvation into question. Their salvation is a gift of God, given freely to all. If we're saved by works, then it doesn't matter how they dress either. We have all sinned and fall short of God's glory. We are all doomed, and you have no right to judge them because you are just as wretched as they are and will be going to the same place.

Either way, you have no right to question their salvation based solely on their appearance. This is how the Pharisees were, if you recall. They said Jesus was a terrible sinner because he hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors. And yet Jesus said these sinners were more righteous than the ones who claimed to be men of God.

[K. Ayato]

Very well said, Nate!

[Rusty Claymore]

Wow, good thing nobody is judgemental here... Jk, jk!
But seriously.
The way you dress has consequences.

There is no way for females dress that will not distract men

False. That attraction you refer to is the attraction to a woman, not the specified attraction to womanly features. Dressing suggestively redirects and focuses attraction in an indecent way.
Ultimately, if you are fine with a guy visualizing you, then you technically have your rights.

[Nate]

I don't think mech was saying that ALL men will be distracted, but that there is no way to dress that will not attract men at all. Some men will be distracted by anything. I'm one of them.

[shooraijin]

Sequins distract me. Too shiny.

[mechana2015]

The way you dress has consequences. False. That attraction you refer to is the attraction to a woman, not the specified attraction to womanly features. Dressing suggestively redirects and focuses attraction in an indecent way.

Dressing "modestly" calls attention to certain features as well, which can have the exact same effect as dressing "suggestively".

[Hansha]

Dressing "modestly" calls attention to certain features as well, which can have the exact same effect as dressing "suggestively".

it's true with some guys you just can't win. All you can do is try to dress modest and the rest is on them. I wouldn't doubt someones salvation because of their clothing though. they might not realize what they are wearing is immodest.

[Rusty Claymore]

My focus was decent attraction vs indecent. While it is up to the guy to control themselves, women can make it harder than it has to be, to their knowledge or not. And yes, a lot of girls that I know just never thought about it, so it's not about faults.
As for the salvation issue, the only teaching I can think of that Jesus gave on descirning it was the when He said you know by the fruit, and even that one was on determining false teachers and was not ment for condemnation.
So while we shouldn't condemn, we shouldn't fall back so far as to believe that anything is acceptable as long as someone says, "Lord, Lord."
Repentance is a dangerous thing to leave out, at least as far as I can see.

[TopazRaven]

I still fail to see why how someone dresses would have anything to do with their salvation or who they are inside. Sorry.