Final Fantasy XIII

[Nate]

Oh, I forgot to mention this. The Spoony One did a review of Final Fantasy XIII on his latest Vlog, which can be seen here:

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/04/03/vlog-4-3-10/

Just be warned that he uses a lot of language, and also he talks about wrestling at the beginning of the video, skip to around the 8 minute mark and that's about when he starts on FFXIII.

[Bobtheduck]

13 is missing core FF elements. Vs, on the other hand, will have a proper Airship and a world map, something missing from FF games for over a decade. Now that 13 is done, VS production should be in full swing.

[uc pseudonym]

Aw come on mang, now your just assuming stuff.

I apologize if it seemed like I was singling out you or anyone else with that remark. I'll admit that it was part of what made me say something, but I was thinking about a lot of other comments and I tried to make the statement in general so as not to accuse anyone.

But really though, I thought she wasn't any colder than a lot of characters (except the punching). You don't have to get very far into the game before she starts acting all friendly with people. The flashbacks eventually make it clear that she thought her sister was lying, and she seemed pretty shaken when she realized what she had done, so I think her behavior is generally pretty understandable.

Speaking of which, why all the Snow hate? I like the guy. He was the only one who wasn't an angsty cry baby. Also, i kinda like his fixation on trying to be a hero. Nice to see a male character with actual character. So many people these days seem to like the "Look at me, I'm an uber-tough anti-hero with no sense of decency or honor!!" type. Also, he's got facial hair and actually looks like a dude. A rare quality for any japanese male character.

Except for the appreciation of facial hair, I don't think we're going to find a lot of common ground here.

I have no problem with heroic characters. But at the beginning, Snow is encouraging civilians to get themselves killed with no regard for the consequences, going into war as if it's going to be a picnic. I was hoping to see his character deal with those mistakes, but then come through with a better sense of realism while still holding onto his ideals. As he stands, his character strikes me the opposite way it did for you.

To answer your question:
[spoiler]The Maker actually never shows up or impacts anything at all. The final villain is just Barthandalus (aka the Pope) and Orphan. At the end there's a pretty standard "yay humanism" speech, but not many religious overtones.[/spoiler]

[Rocketshipper]

Just started playing 13 the other day. and all I have to say is this...

"My hands, they only agree to hold, your hands! And they don't want to be without, your hands, and they will not let me go, no THEY WILL NOT LET ME GO!!!!!"



:lol: Ok seriously....I'm currently at the start of chapter 6, and so far I'm enjoying myself, although at the moment its still probably too early to say how it measures up to the other games in the series overall. I predict that I'll probably end up liking it more than 10, but not as much as 12. Anyway, I'll break it up into pros and cons so far, since that will probably be easiest.

Pro:
-Great graphics, but of course that goes without saying ^^.

-Music's pretty good too...not as good as 7 or 8 I'd say, but about on the same level as most of the other games in the series. I like that vocal theme they've played in a few cutscenes so far (its not "My Hands". I'm not sure what it is. Translation of the japanese theme?)

-I was pleasantly surprised to find I like the battle system, once it was actually introduced. The player's guide made it sound uber complex, but it turned out to not be (at least not yet...) Most battles are pretty fast paced, and the AI is pretty smart at picking attacks. Its also pretty satisfying to stagger an enemy and then wail on it, watching your damage output skyrocket. And *so far* I havn't really had to go out of my way to power level or anything, since so far I've managed to accumulate enough CP in each area to bring my character up to the max of what's been unlocked in the Chrystarium so far. And its always satisfying to spend that CP and see my characters advancing and getting stronger ^^.

-I actually like most of the characters. *hides* No really! The character designs are all pretty appealing, and I think they;re all pretty interesting so far. I look forward to seeing more of their backstories. Honestly, I don;t think they're all that angsty either. Certainly they're more angsty than the guys from 10 and 12, But it mostly hasn;t come off to me as being forced or unnatural, given their situation. Hope is probably the worst with the angst, and he's already started to show signs of growing a spine in chapter 4. I think Sazh is awesome. I wasn't a big fan of Snow at first, but he's starting to grow on me, mostly through the flashbacks with him and Sarah. I still think he looks to much like Seifer though ><. At this point, the only character I'm not big on at all is Fang, and that's just cause she's hardly done anything yet ^^. But my favorite character in the entire game so far is one that isn;t even playable; its Sarah! I don't really know why, but I've gotten to really like her through the flashbacks I've been seeing.

-I really like the method through which the backstories are being introduced so far. The game starts off by throughing you straight into the action, and then slowly reveals more about these characters through flashbacks to the 12 days leading up to the Purge. I like how we see the characters crossing eachother's paths in the previous days without theym even realizing it, and the way it teases out information about the 12 days and what happened just makes me want to find out more. Its a nice little mystery.

Cons:
-Even though I like the battle system, I must admit that things can get a bit repetitive at times. During chapter 5, almost every major enemy is best beaten by going at them a round or two with a Commando/Ravager pair and then switching to twin Ravagers to finish the stagger, then switching back to Commando/Ravager to launch them. It is a little bit annoying that only Commando's and Ravager's are capable of attacking. And so far the Sentinal role is getting majorly shafted, since Snow is the only one who's had it so far. I also must say that I'm hoping the character aquire some better Area of effect spells and abilities later, cause right now they're only really effective at attacking one target at a time, which makes certain enemy groups take a little bit longer.

-Stupid stupid stupid upgrade system ><. Its really not that bad IN THEORY; use various vendor trash items you collect to power up your equipment, somewhat like FF 8's system. The problem is A) EVERY SINGLE weapon and accessory can be upgraded, which is a little bit accessive, and B) upgrading your weapon's and items efficiently requires buying upgrade items in bulk, which requires a lot of gil, which brings me to the next complaint...

-No Money Spiders: Yes I know, the idea of monsters in the wilderness randomly dropping currency is unrealistic. But come on, acceptable breaks from reality, people!! Having to sell items to make money is a pain in the butt. I disliked it when 12 did it too. But you know what, at least 12 had the descency to make most of those random drops and steals items *exclusively* for selling. 13 messes this up by making all that sellable junk ALSO a part of the upgrade system. So you essentially end up having to choose between selling stuff for money, or hoarding it all to use in upgrading. And I'm sure there have been many a player who accidently sold a cataylist item, not knowing its true purpose. There do seem to be some items in this game intended exclusively for selling, but in all my time playing so far I've found exactly ONE of these items, and it was way back in chapter 1.

-Libra, Libra, Libra: Ok lets look at this...using TP to cast Libra as a tecnique that works instantly...good. Making Libra an essential skill for identifying enemy weaknesses so that the AI can act accordingly...also good. Forcing the player to cast Libra multiple times on the same enemy in order to uncover everything about them...VERY VERY BAD!!!! *shoots programmers*. Who came up with that? Libra is a skill that uses TP, something that is also needed for summons and things like Quake. TP regenerates rather slowly, and Ethersol items aren't exactly raining out of the sky. So forcing the player to cast Libra two or three times on EACH new enemy they meet is not only stupid but not even economical. Libra should reveal everything about the enemy on the FIRST cast, darn it!! The only saving grace is that, once you've libra'd an enemy into revealing all its secrets, the secrets *stay* revealed, and can be called up in battle any time you fight that enemy.

-The Plot. Mainly I'm wondering where the heck it is...So far this is a rather slowly paced game. True, I like the characters and the way the backstory is getting told bit by bit, but as far as stuff actually happening NOW, in the characters' present, there really hasn;t been much so far. After the characters become L'Cie, the only really notable thing thats happened is [[spoiler: Snow being arrested by the Calvary]]. Other than that, its basicly been several chapters of the characters wandering the wilderness and talking to each other. I'm hoping things pick up soon.


Miscealanous things that don't really fall into either category:
-I dont really get why we couldn't have the battles on the actual field like we did in 12. Most of the game areas so far have been wide open enough to just battle it out right there, and all the enemies and party members appear on the map screen, so going back to the "seperate battle field" thing after 12 seems a bit weird.

-Yeah the levels are linear. But honestly, I don't think they're any more linear than the early areas of 10 were, and they certainly aren't short. However, the way the game is broken up into chapters does make it seem more like an old platformer/arcade game where we're playing through disconnected levels, rather than an RPG taking place in a fleshed out world where we actually travel seemlessly from place to place.

-I find it odd that the majority of the sidequests are supposed to be left till after the main game is completed. Its like the writers heard some of the complaints about 12 and went to the opposite extreme. What exactly is the point of sidequests AFTER the game is over, other than for Bragging Rights Rewards that is? Maybe if they revealed more storyline, or worked like the playable epilogue in Lunar 2, that would be one thing, but it doesn't look like that to me. What's the point of becoming super strong and collecting lots of new items and weapons and abilites if you already beat the game? I'm not sure I'm going to even attempt most of the side quests this time around. Doesn;t seem like there;s too much of a point, and my time is limited now anyway. Besides, I've alwasy been primarily focused on the story.

One more final thing; Say what you will about there being no towns from a gameplay aspect...but from a storyline aspect I must admit that it does kind of make sense. Yeah, its true that we've had FF characters in the past who've been fugitives on the run from the authorities, but I'd say the characters in FF 13 are actually a step above that; they aren't JUST fugitives from the goverment and authority figures, they've become outcasts and fugitives in the eyes of nearly *every single person on the planet*!!!! Its not just that they can't enter a town for fear of being caught by the military; they can't interact with ANYONE outside of their own party and close blood relatives and friends, because everyone is scared of them and hates them. They get spotted in town, and even normal citizens would be running in terror or possibly trying to attack them. And even if we consider that maybe they could just cover their L'Cie tattos and wear disguises (An FF character changing clothes!?!?), there's also the fact that the characters don't even get anywhere near a habitated area until chapter 7; They spend the first chapters in the middle of a war zone, and then spend the subsequent ones lost in the wilderness.

[uc pseudonym]

Oh, I forgot to mention this. The Spoony One did a review of Final Fantasy XIII on his latest Vlog, which can be seen here:

I'm glad I eventually took the time to listen to this, because I liked it a lot better than anything of Spoony's I've seen before. Speaking directly he seems a lot more interesting to me. And while I didn't feel the same way about the game, I don't disagree with many of his specific comments.

And *so far* I havn't really had to go out of my way to power level or anything, since so far I've managed to accumulate enough CP in each area to bring my character up to the max of what's been unlocked in the Chrystarium so far. And its always satisfying to spend that CP and see my characters advancing and getting stronger ^^.

Grinding is pointless until late game. If you do nothing but 5-star the obligatory battles, you'll always have enough to max everyone in all roles for each stage. My only complaint there is that it means there's no real choice in specialization]-Stupid stupid stupid upgrade system ><. Its really not that bad IN THEORY; use various vendor trash items you collect to power up your equipment, somewhat like FF 8's system. The problem is A) EVERY SINGLE weapon and accessory can be upgraded, which is a little bit accessive, and B) upgrading your weapon's and items efficiently requires buying upgrade items in bulk, which requires a lot of gil, which brings me to the next complaint...[/quote]
I recommend ignoring it. Seriously, I only did a few levels playing around with the system and it didn't cause me any trouble with the game. The Magic/Strength bonus a weapon gives you is generally unimportant compared to the special ability.

And in terms of selling, keep everything except Credit Chips, Incentive Chips, and the odd items like Plushies. Everything else isn't worth it, but these items seem made to sell. This should have been made clearer, because it only adds to the hassle of the system.

What exactly is the point of sidequests AFTER the game is over, other than for Bragging Rights Rewards that is? Maybe if they revealed more storyline, or worked like the playable epilogue in Lunar 2, that would be one thing, but it doesn't look like that to me.

I agree with your main complaint, but don't write off the sidequests immediately. A few of them do have new cutscenes that are of interest (you'll find them all if you explore the new areas of Gran Pulse and find the chocobos). Most are nothing to write home about, but there's one where Fang and Sazh talk about parenthood that I thought was a welcome character note.

[Solid Ronin]

I recommend ignoring it. Seriously, I only did a few levels playing around with the system and it didn't cause me any trouble with the game. The Magic/Strength bonus a weapon gives you is generally unimportant compared to the special ability.

I'll have to disagree with UC on this. While the special ability is the more prized attribute, upgrading your weapons will eventually give you a significant boost in stats. And while this will take awhile, "evolving" your equipment will either enhance or flat out change the ability.

It's never too far off, A "raise HP" stats will remain the same but something like "Full TAB" may go into "Quick Stagger".

And now on a more personal note. I beat Gigantuar!

[Rocketshipper]

I just beat chapter 10 the other day, so I'll update a bit.

I think I overreacted a little on the whole Libra thing. TP doesn;t seem to take as long to recharge now as it seemed to earlier in the game, and even if a single cast of libra doesn't reveal everything about an enemy right off the bat, the rest of the info usually gets filled in based on how the battle went anyway (like, if the random drops aren;t revealed, and then you beat the enemy and they drop something, it will get filled in for you) So now I just cast libra once on everything, or use a librascope, and save the rest of my TP for summons.

Still don't really like the upgrade system, because its something that you really can't do effieciently without the guide, since the game doesn't really tell you about the experience multiplier thing, or how much exp. is needed to max out a weapon/accessory. And really, neither does the guide ><. It lists the "max level" for every weapon and accessory, and stats and all that, but doesn;t tell you how much exp. is needed to max them out. I had to go look it up in an FAQ. And since I don't have access to the really good exp yeilding materials yet, I'm just using the system to upgrade a few accessories with really low max levels, like my Doctor's Codes (dismantle a maxed out one for an elixir!!!) and my Wind Scarf thing.

I really really didn't like chapter 9 ^^. It wasn't anything with the story really, it was just a huge pain in the butt. It seemed crammed full of more enemies than any previous chapter, and nearly every battle seemed to take at least five minutes. About half way through I was ready to just start running from every battle to get to the end. And that darn boss!!!

I have to say that I think this may be the most character driven Final Fantasy in the whole series. The farther I go, the more impressed I get with the scenes of the characters interracting and growing with eachother. I loved the scene between Snow and Hope in chapter 7, and the big final of Chapter 8 between Sazh and Vanille. And it really seems like EVERY character is important to the plot, not just a few, like its been in some previous FF games. This might be one of my favorite casts in the series.


On a little amusing note, the first time I fought [spoiler]Cid[/spoiler] in the middle of chapter 10, I got my butt totally handed to me, and never even managed to stagger the boss again after the first time. That second form was just too crazy. The second time I fought? I staggered and launched the boss, and then killed it before it ever got its second form activated.

[Rocketshipper]

one quick question. When it comes to ascessories like the Sprint shoes which bestow Auto-haste, is there any reason to upgrade them if you aren't planning on dismantling them? Cause with an ability like auto-haste it doesn't seem like you could really improve it beyond what it already does. This would be nice info to know, because there are several items like this (sprint shoes, Tetradic tiara, the catalog items) that I plan to use, and I don;t want to waste items upgrading them if I get their full abilities from the start.

Also, why can;t I edit my last post? I seem to have accidently failed to type the spoiler warning properly, but I can;t fix it if I can;t edit it.

[Rocketshipper]

http://www.pluggedin.com/games/2010/finalfantasyxiii.aspx Pluggedin on-line reviewed FF 13. And Holtz-sama reviewed it!

wow, it was pretty short. Sounds like he didn't play much more of it than Yatzhee did.

[Whitefang]

I got FFXIII for my birthday from my brother. I don't know how you guys progress so quickly. I'm at Chapter 3, so I just learned about paradigms. As you can see from my avatar, I am drinking the kool-aid.

It's...good. Yeah, so far it's just a movie with me pressing "auto battle" from time to time, but the system has potential. The most frustrating thing is the "auto battle". On the one hand, awesome, now I know what is considered most efficient by the game. On the other hand, I greatly prefer selecting my own commands, but the ATB bar fills to quickly, so I feel like I am losing efficiency when I am wasting time selecting my own commands (the ATB bar is full and I'm still selecting, so there is a lot of waste). FFXII's battle system was much better, and this should have been modeled after it (perhaps every so often I get to form a queue of actions that my party should perform, much like a D&D round or some such). NB that I have never played D&D, so that is just a guess from what I've heard.

But overall it's fun, and the graphics are amazing. This is coming from someone who is not big into graphics, so that should tell you something. I guess the gaming industry has slowly changed my expectations to higher quality visuals. (I still like a good sprite, though.)

Another frustrating thing is the Crystarium ridiculousness. It's not that it's bad, it's just that it's a rehashed Sphere Grid/License Board. Honestly, this system is tired, and I want something new and simpler or old and complex. I do not want most of the game to be deciding whether to go left or right on the Ravager Crystarium. It would be interesting, for example, to have the characters gain experience based on their class and then you could unlock abilities similar to the talent trees in WoW. That would be old (FFV job system) and new (instead of predetermined abilities, the characters grow based on user input and how they are used in the game).

The music is excellent, and I have no problem listening to "Blinded by Light" over and over again. I almost wish the battles would play themselves so I could concentrate on it.

Oh, and now that I have experienced the linearity, I can say with a clear mind that it is exactly the same as FFX. I also do not understand the complaints against there being no shops. I have had an opportunity to shop at every save point, and there isn't even anything I want. I can't imagine how irritated I would be if I had to endure two loading screens in order to be disappointed at each store. I know about the upgrade system, and potions drop like candy, so there is no reason to sell my goods to buy anything. It also seems like most of the upgrades will be done by improving equipment and improving my characters (finally, my number one irritation with Final Fantasy games is the ridiculous power that a simple sword or piece of armor can grant).

With all that said, I can understand 100% why someone might not like it. But I think it appeals to me as a more casual type of gamer (casual as in amount of time available for playing things).

[uc pseudonym]

[quote="Rocketshipper"]one quick question. When it comes to ascessories like the Sprint shoes which bestow Auto-haste, is there any reason to upgrade them if you aren't planning on dismantling them? Cause with an ability like auto-haste it doesn't seem like you could really improve it beyond what it already does. This would be nice info to know, because there are several items like this (sprint shoes, Tetradic tiara, the catalog items) that I plan to use, and I don]
If you're in the post-game (where you do need to start upgrading), then I recommend finding a spreadsheet or guide of some kind. It can be a pain going through upgrades in the dark. I'm not the best person to ask, since I ignored the upgrade system for the entire game and only played with it some afterward.

But for some preliminary answers:
1) No, the upgrades for those abilities don't immediately help.
2) When you max the item and turn it into something new, Auto-haste and the like can become better abilities. Or worse ones, which is why I recommend a guide.
3) Personally, I found that Auto-skill items didn't live up to my expectations because the effect wears off and then your accessory slot is useless. Good for short battles, not for the longer times when it would be necessary.

[quote="Rocketshipper"]Also, why can]
The ability to edit expires after a period of time. If something ever comes up that needs to be changed, we can do it for you.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Ok, the Blinded By the Light argument is a new one to me, but I'm going to have that song stuck in my head for the rest of the day and again when I rent the game. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

[Rocketshipper]

thats nice info to know, thanks, although I probably should have asked earlier, since I already went through the trouble of maxing out my collector's and Connesiur's catalogs before I'd asked, ^^ oops.

Most of the ascessories seem kind of pointless in the long run. Like all the ones that give you protection against just one status or elemental type damage. I have a guide and it tells what everything turns into so I've already go that covered; Sprint Shoes can't be transformed into anything else, so it looks like the only reason to level it up is if you want to dismantle. Ribbons and Super Ribbons look to be dissapointly weak, offering only 25% resistance to all statuses when fully maxed. They sure nerfed that accessory ><. Besides the catalogs, the growth egg,and the Auto-haste/Auto-tetradefense items, I'm not sure what other accessories I should bother with, partly because this dumb guide (and no other guides I can find either) doesn't tell what some of these abilities actually do or how they work. Like "first Strike". The ability name sounds obvious, but how exactly does that work in battle? random chance for a full ATB bar at the start of battle or something? Overall, I have to say that the official stratigy guide is pretty lacking in a lot of areas. It gives good stratigies for bosses, and nice maps and stuff, but its a little light on this kind of info.

[Nate]

Ribbons and Super Ribbons look to be dissapointly weak, offering only 25% resistance to all statuses when fully maxed. They sure nerfed that accessory ><.

Still better than the FF9 Ribbon.

[Rocketshipper]

But the ribbon in 9 taught you a summon, I'd say thats better than the ones in this.

Okay, first, have each character be really awesome at one job, and be kind of awesome at a second. For example, have one be primary Blaster/secondary Jammer, the second be primary Attacker/secondary Defender, and the third be primary Healer/secondary Enhancer for your first three characters. Then the next few switch it up, like the fourth character to join you is a primary Defender and secondary Healer. This allows for some customization of a party, ensuring nobody is a clone and also avoiding the Crystarium's current problem of "You can make this character a job they shouldn't be but you're stupid because they'll suck at it." This way they have a job they're good at and a second job they're also pretty good at. So for example, the primary Attacker/secondary Defender would be a good Defender, but the primary Defender/secondary Healer would be a better Defender than him...but of course, you wouldn't be able to switch that one over to an attacking role, he'd just be a good support.

This was from a while ago, but I'll respond now, since I forgot about it till I read back through the posts

What you proposed is basicly how it is. Each character has access to three primary jobs that they're best at, and each character has a different set of three. The nodes in the three primary jobs cost relatively the same amount, give or take a few hundred or so CP, and your supposed to develop the characters in all three of their primary jobs throughout the game. You don;t gain acess to the other three jobs for each character until halfway through chapter 9, and since they have signifigantly fewer nodes and higher costs per node, its seems that the intention was for the player to leave those jobs for much later, after you've already mastered your primary jobs.

Well in the end, I have to say my feelings about the game overall are a little mixed. As I said before I think this is possibly one of the most character driven FF games in the series and I grew to love the entire cast. Its may be my favorite cast yet. The world they inhabit is also pretty intriguing, and I'd have liked to have known more about it than what the game shows (maybe the other 13 related games will shed some light on that) But the story...I'm almost tempted to just say "what story?".

[SPOILER] Half the game is spent with the characters wandering around trying to figure out what they're supposed to do, and when they're task is finally revealed, they just go ahead and do it. No real plot twists, no "third option", just kill Orphan. Take away the awesome character development, and you've got a storyline that's as simplistic and linear as most of the dungeons. "powerful beings give humans the task of killing random giant monster, humans fulfill their task." The game is woefully lacking in subplots and supporting characters. Cid's resistance group comes out of nowhere and has little development or relevance to the plot ("oh by the way, here's a segment of the military who don't like Fa'ciel, that we've never mentioned or alluded to before!") I don't even know why the creators bothered to give Rygdea a bio page in the datalog, he had all of 4 lines in the entire game. The girl with glasses was just "generic goverment scientist lady" and Yaag could have been replaced with a faceless mook for all the relevance he had. In the end, our 6 main protaganists (along with Serah and Dajh) are really the only people who exist in this world, everyone else is irrelevant. I really wish we'd had a better villian too. Gigantic inhuman Fa'ciel make for poor antagonists, and the Primarch was just a generic puppet master type. Where's a Sephiroth or a Kefka or even a Seymour when you need one?? And the ending...pretty anti-climactic and Deus ex Machina. the Graphics were good, but I was hoping for a lot more, maybe an epilogue showing the characters in their new lives, a chance to let the non-player characters have a little send off (oh I forgot, they don't exist, except for Dajh and Serah). And I was very dissapointed at their use of "My Hands". Yeah I know, the song wasn;t written for the game in the first place, but I'm not even sure I would have liked the original song at that point either. And they had the song playing so low that you could barely hear it over the characters talking. What's the point of an insert song if its too low to hear well?[/SPOILER]

There were a couple of other things that bothered me about the story, like...

[SPOILER] was the plan to destroy Cocoon thought up by the Cocoon Fa'cie only, or were they all in on it? If they weren't, then what reason did the Pulse Fa'cie have to want to destroy Cocoon? There were some hints of Backstory during Chapter 11 and from some files found during the mark hunts, but they were pretty vague and confusing. Also, if the Cocoon Fal'cie were intending to manipulate Pulse La'cie into destroying Cocoon, why did they go through so much effort to demonize Pulse and everything related to it? Seems to me that creating a society that hates anything Pulse related on sight, and going through the effort to "purge" anything and everyone related to Pulse is only going to hinder your plans to have Pulse La'cie destroy your big floating planet. And was the Vestige in Bodhum brought to Cocoon on purpose?[/SPOILER]

So in the end...I don't know what to think. Loved the characters, enjoyed the battle system, great graphics, but an adventure that was just so straightforward and simple with hardly anything actually happening beyond the admittedly great character development scenes. Gameplay wise, I liked it more than 12; linearity doesn't really bother me and 12 was wide open to the point of being overwhelming for me, and I didn't like that battle system. But narrative wise, 12 and 10-2 and even 10 trumped this I'd say.

[uc pseudonym]

Every one of your plot objections can be answered by the fact that the fal'Cie are unfathomable entities beyond human comprehension. This explains everything. Why does the villain's true form include four heads that appear to be singing his theme song during the fight? Unfathomable.

There is some post-game content that sheds a bit of light on a few things, plus I think you can speculate some answers.
[spoiler]Have you met Titan yet? He's the giant black and red thing that eats an Adamantoise when you first enter that area. During some of the side missions he will talk to you. I also don't remember when you get his datalog entry.

Anyway, from that, I got the sense that most of the fal'Cie are mechanistic, just trying to fulfill their created purpose. Some of them are following Barthandelus in trying to bring back the Maker, but Titan and some others don't seem to care at all. Now we do know that Anima is from Pulse, and apparently it wanted to destroy Cocoon, so maybe a few of them were working together?

I'm also pretty sure I remember something about Barthandelus being the one responsible for moving the Vestige. As to why they would demonize Pulse, I don't know. You could speculate that they needed this element to create new, confused l'Cie to lead to a bunch of chaos and eventually the mass death, but the game really isn't clear enough on this.[/spoiler]

What you proposed is basicly how it is. Each character has access to three primary jobs that they're best at, and each character has a different set of three. The nodes in the three primary jobs cost relatively the same amount, give or take a few hundred or so CP, and your supposed to develop the characters in all three of their primary jobs throughout the game. You don]
I also ended up liking this, because the characters don't learn the same skills. In addition to everyone having a few unique skills, they don't have the same capabilities as any other character, even when they're in the same job. So you have the flexibility to switch to triple Sentinels for the defense boost, for example, but there's no way those three can actually perform equally well.

They sure nerfed that accessory ><. Besides the catalogs, the growth egg,and the Auto-haste/Auto-tetradefense items, I'm not sure what other accessories I should bother with, partly because this dumb guide (and no other guides I can find either) doesn't tell what some of these abilities actually do or how they work. Like "first Strike". The ability name sounds obvious, but how exactly does that work in battle? random chance for a full ATB bar at the start of battle or something?

I wish this was explained better too. I found two abilities that seemed to have a noticeable effect: ATB Charge and Chain Bonus Boost. Quick Stagger also seemed effective at first, but I'm not actually sure how much it helped. I used my free slots for boosting the character's primary damage stat.

[Rocketshipper]

Every one of your plot objections can be answered by the fact that the fal'Cie are unfathomable entities beyond human comprehension.

Maybe so, but that doesn't really make for a very satisfying experience.

I also ended up liking this, because the characters don't learn the same skills. In addition to everyone having a few unique skills, they don't have the same capabilities as any other character, even when they're in the same job. So you have the flexibility to switch to triple Sentinels for the defense boost, for example, but there's no way those three can actually perform equally well.

That was part of Nate's objection, if I understand him right. The fact that you can make the characters take up whatever job you like, but each character is really only good at three, so ultimately its better to just stick with the main jobs. The illusion of custimization. And it does seem that the main reason to level up the sub jobs is just for the stat bonuses and the passive enhancements from the role level crystals.

[Nate]

Right. Like I said, illusion of choice. Same as if a person in an alleyway points a gun at you and says "Oh, you don't have to give me your money, I'll just shoot you if you don't." That isn't really a choice, it's an illusion of choice, because really the only option is "Give him your money." Likewise, making Sazh a Healer is an illusion of choice because he sucks at it. The game pretends like it's giving you choices, "Hey, you can make Sazh a Healer! But if you do, you're dumb because he sucks at it because he's not supposed to be a Healer."

And it does seem that the main reason to level up the sub jobs is just for the stat bonuses and the passive enhancements from the role level crystals.

So then why don't they just give you the stat bonuses and passive enhancements in one of the jobs he's actually good at instead of forcing you to waste points gaining levels in jobs you're not going to have him do because he isn't any good at them? So then it's even MORE of an illusion of choice, because your characters aren't at their full potential unless you level them up in jobs you won't have them do anyway, because that's where stat bonuses and passive enhancements are and who's going to say "Nah, I won't level those up because I don't need better stats and abilities." So it's actually twice the illusion of choice because 1) you're powering up jobs you won't use because the game literally will not let certain characters be good at certain jobs no matter how hard you try and 2) you're going to power up every job anyway for the bonuses even if you don't use the jobs, because otherwise you're not making your character as good as they can be.

[Rocketshipper]

there actually is one reason to level up the sub jobs beyond stats, and thats obtaining the role level crystal to enhance the basic power of the job. Each job has role levels that, when unlocked, grant passive abilities to your character AND the other characters in the party. Commando role level crystals cause all attacks by the party to be slightly more damaging when that commando is on the field, Sentinel level crystals cause damage to be reduced slightly when a Sentinel is on the field, and so on, with these bonuses getting stronger for higher role level crystals. And the effects stack, so two sentinels on the field grants better damage reduction to everybody, and three grants even more.

Although you don't really need to use your characters' sub jobs for the main part of the storyline, there are battles during the post game when it can be useful or necissary to have three of a particular job out at once, such as three Sentinels for maximum defense, or three medics at once for ultra fast healing, and some of these combinations just aren't possible in the same battle, with the same team, without mastering some sub jobs.

And the thing is, leveling up a particular job isn't just about getting better *at that one job*. Ultimately, mastering all 6 jobs for a character will make that character better AT EVERY JOB than they would have been otherwise, because stat enhancements gained from the crystarium apply regardless of what job your using. Lightning is best at being a Commando, Ravager, and Medic, and unlocking everything in the other three jobs will make her better at being being a commando, medic, and ravager, even if I never use those other jobs. Granted then, it would be nice to have the option of not buying abilities that you aren't going to use.

[uc pseudonym]

Yeah, I wouldn't try to argue that the customization is anything other than an illusion. What I was meaning is that the characters are more unique than they have been since arguably FF9. Everyone is flexible and can do all roles (eventually), but they're still differentiated. I'd be happy with the system if they just let you equip the role you wanted to improve (like the job system) instead of making you waste your time filling in a basically linear grid.

The sub jobs aren't really meant to be used until deep into the post game, as shown by their costs. You really only get into them when you want even more stat boosts than you get in your main classes. I guess this is one point where the grid isn't entirely pointless, because you could skip all of the dead end paths that teach abilities that you won't use. Still, letting everyone get all jobs is necessary for strategy. It's not customization, but it's not pointless because there are plenty of times that you'd want to switch someone into a class where they're mediocre for a temporary boost or defense.

So while I agree that they shouldn't have pretended the game had customization, I think behind that illusion is a decent system. It's nice for the characters to be different in more than just stats or limit breaks, but letting everyone do all jobs allows for different kinds of strategy.

Maybe so, but that doesn't really make for a very satisfying experience.

My first sentence was not meant to be taken seriously.

[Rocketshipper]

I was thinking about this issue a lot today (yes I have no life ^^) and I decided that the system would have been a lot better if they'd made the sub jobs cost *less* than the main jobs. It only makes sense to me that a node that gives you a +500 HP bonus should cost more than a node that gives you a +50 HP bonus. The stat bonuses offered by the sub jobs are patheticly small compared to their costs. Even on the highest level of the sub jobs' crystariums, your only getting like +5 in a particular stat per node. the highest levels of the main jobs offer ten times that for slightly less CP cost. Also, making them less expensive I think would partially counterbalance the character being mediocre at those jobs; they may not be as good at X role, but at least it takes them less time to unlock its abilities.

In the end, its just annoying that you should have to pay through the nose in CP for the job that your character sucks at.

[Rocketshipper]

I just beat Mark mission 64. All monster missions have finally been completed. Woot!

Must say, I'm a bit dissapointed after having done all that. Not much to show for it, except a lot of leveling and lots of items and accessories I don't need. Already beat the ending. I think it would have been nice if they gave you a longer ending or something for having completed all the missions, sort of like Revenant Wings and X-2. It was fun for the most part, and pretty satisfying to kill a monster with 16 million HP (and not have it take 8 bazillion hours. *cough*Yiazmat ) but I think if I ever play 13 again, I'll skip all these sidequests, or only do the ones that trigger the optional cutscenes.

[Whitefang]

Ok, I just beat the game today.

[spoiler]Everything leading up to the ending was great. I was hooked emotionally and involved in the welfare of the characters. And then...well, it was like the developers suddenly realized they were running out of space on the blu-ray disc and had to come up with a quick ending. It didn't really hold my interest or particularly resolve anything. I guess that's par for the course these days. Still, it's disappointing when most of my enjoyment came from the story itself.[/spoiler]

I still love Vanille, though. I wish I could have her attitude all the time. Well, without the flightiness.

I think all I have left to do is max each character's weapons and complete all the missions. Definitely a good cost to entertainment value after all, but there doesn't seem to be much reason to do play after beating the game...leveling my characters won't make me change the main party and I'm unlikely to complete the ending again, so probably I'll go back to finish XII and work on "completing" XIII when I feel like it.

[Solid Ronin]

[spoiler]Everything leading up to the ending was great. I was hooked emotionally and involved in the welfare of the characters. And then...well, it was like the developers suddenly realized they were running out of space on the blu-ray disc and had to come up with a quick ending. It didn't really hold my interest or particularly resolve anything. I guess that's par for the course these days. Still, it's disappointing when most of my enjoyment came from the story itself.[/spoiler]

That's the Japanese for ya. Although In their defense ....

[spoiler] The ending actually solved lots of stuff. They're no longer under the "shepherding" of the fal'cie and saved Cocoon. Its HOW they did it that was just kinda ... there. [/spoiler]

[Ingemar]

Speaking of which, why all the Snow hate?

Because he's a walking, talking, breathing mound of stupid? Because he appears to be imperivous to the consequences of his actions and to the feelings of his companions? Because his skills as a leader aren't worth a wooden nickel? Because he is pathologically unable to think before he acts?

I know, I know--"stupid" heroes can be cool sometimes (think Goku and The Tick). But for Snow, the stupid far outweighs the cool.

I'm only 14.5 hours into the game and Snow is my least favorite character, in case you couldn't tell.

[Furen]

I was way WAY under leveled by endgame (Like so under leveled I was surprised we got to the 2nd form of the final boss)

My friend and I had a speed run in the first month (Because he lives so far away and we wanted to beat it) and we beat all but the final version of the final boss. We used Hope and Scaz (I think that's how you spell his name) as synergists to give Lightning as a Commando a massive boost then let them buff up each other and then switched to Tri-Disaster where we then continued to blast millions of damage. That was our strategy while being so under leveled.

Hope that helped someone

[Ingemar]

That ending. Man. THAT ENDING.


And Snow still sucks.

[Bobtheduck]

I wonder if I'll be able to beat an RPG any time soon. i've got FF9 and FF12 to finish before I think of 13.

[Ingemar]

I should probably explain my feelings a bit in more depth.

I have never been more infuriated with a game than I have with Final Fantasy XIII. The game is like a relief of a puddle of vomit made of 24k gold. That is, it is a pretty, elegant, meticulously crafted abomination.


I thought the ending made the whole game suck, but in reality it stopped making sense during the main plot twist and plummeted after that. Thinking about the villain's master scheme makes you wonder why he even bothers getting out of bed in the morning, the characters' paeans about free will and humanism ring completely hollow, and in light of the way the whole l'Cie thing works, and the threat the world faces, you wonder why [spoiler]they just don't kill themselves right there.[/spoiler].


And what really infuriates me was that Snow's approach to everything (Hero's don't need plans!) turned out to be right.



Excuse me while I punch some dirt for an hour or two.