Concerning 'Bible Study'

[Ashley]

As suprising as it may sound, I'm also against women pastors; however women evangelists or women teachers are not the same thing to me. Let's look at this logically. We are not a congregation at a formal church; we are a small, informal gathering. Gypsy is not directing the business of a church or requesting ordination. Instead of thinking of it as a pastor position, think of it as a small group leader, like a youth or sunday school class lesson instead of the actual sermon.

And it sounds to me like most of the boards don't mind the fact she's "teaching" (I like Gremio's definition better, proclaiming God's truth), so perhaps it would be best for you Michael if you just didn't read anything from that board. No one is twisting your arm to read it.

[Michael]

Ok.

[Will Smith, Jr]

In keeping with what Ashley said, Christ is still the focus of this forum and to have something Biblically based is only fitting. I will be in prayer for mods and lay people regarding this situation. Oh and by the way everbody, smile. Jesus loves us!

WillieDoc

[Mithrandir]

First and foremost, this is not a debate. This is my beliefs that I have come to through much prayer, struggle and learning. I do not see any reason why women should not be in the ministry in any role that God qualifies them to be in. I know many women who ARE pastors who believe they have felt the call of God on their heart to go into professional ministry - and God has BLESSED their minsitry because they were so faithful. I have thought very long and hard about it, and have come to my beliefs based on the following exogesis. For the record, I will be up front. I studied for the ministry, but was never ordained as a pastor. My wife has a theology degree and did a very long exogesis on this exact topic. My adopted mother is a pastor. Knowing this, bear in mind that it was before I met either of these women that I came to the some conclusions, expressed in the following statements:

First and foremost, the purpose of Christ's redemptive work is to set God's creation free from the curse of the Fall. Those who are "in Christ" are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). In this redemptive community, no human being is to be regarded as inferior on the basis of social status, race, or gender (Galatians 3:26-28).

Secondly: acknowledging the apparent paradox created by Paul's instruction to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:11-12) and to the church in Corinth (1 Corinthians 14:33-34), I believe interpreting these passages as limiting the role of women in ministry presents serious conflicts with specific passages of scripture that commend female participation in spiritual leadership roles (Joel 2:28-29; Acts 2:17-18; 21:8-9; Romans 16:1, 3, 7; Philippians 4:2-3).

Finally: it is incompatible with the character of God presented throughout Scripture, especially as revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.

[uc pseudonym]

Well, with the number of responses (even more if I count all of Inkhana's seperately), I don't think I am going to post that much. But I have a little.

My general thoughts fall into the line of "in Christ there is no... male or female." oldphilosopher took most of my good points: the very writer of the letter you use also commended many female leaders (and by that we do mean teachers), and also "ordained" so to speak, a few more.

In light of these things, Paul's words cannot be understood in the light of a general statement. To use the traditional interpretation of the original quoted passage: Greek women had basically no rights. Thus, when they entered the Kingdom of God and got plenty more, some went overboard. Some even stood in the middle of theological discussions and started condemning people basically just because they could. The interpretation I've generally taken is this: Paul's order is for a specific church at a specific time and place, not for all of Christianity.

But to keep this on topic: I have one example of a thread that went the right way. It was in the Bible Study forum and about the Holy Spirit. My view has generally been to use neuter pronouns for the Holy Spirit, but others felt differently. We talked it out a bit, and they presented verses that convinced me. No arguments, no fighting. That's what it's mean to be... and what it has been, and can still be.

[Michael]

I'm going to make sure that I fully understand what you and Oldphil are saying before I respond;

'Women are equal to men when teaching the Bible. And-according to our interpretation- God never said it wasn't right for them to teach men, he created men and women equal.'

Is that a correct summary?

[uc pseudonym]

I'm not going to answer in this thread, as it would become a debate, which is not supported by CAA. If anyone has anything to say about the original topic, I've left it open for you to say things.

But this obviously isn't over. I'll also be pming Michael an answer to his question. If you want to join in, oldphilosopher, you certainly can.

[Gremio]

It should be noted that "in christ there is no male or female" is false. G-d definetly did set tasks for the woman and for the men, neither had the advantage over the other but they both had different roles. That much is consistant with the bible.

But at the same time, I do believe it to be a role for everyone to proclaim G-ds truth, not teaching but evangelising.

To keep to the original topic, maybe if Bible Study stuck to things that people dont disagree on?

[uc pseudonym]

To keep to the original topic, maybe if Bible Study stuck to things that people dont disagree on?

Yes, but you can find people who will disagree about anything including the shape of planet Earth. Obviously, these people are unreasonable.

But, then, we need to determine who is reasonable and who is not. This is a bit trickier, as people will disagree about what is reasonable and what isn't. Do you see how it's a bit complex?

[Michael]

Thanks uc pseudonym, I'll leave that argument off from now on.


<Me: Well, I just don't feel anyone here is fit to teach.>

That's not true; there are people here who can teach. I have other reasons for objecting to Gypsy, but I'm not going to voice those because they're mainly theological and the 'Women shouldn't teach,' is much more powerful and a lot nicer.

If the Bible Study forum were to only support exhortation (using the Bible of course) then I think that would be fine. It would have to be monitered heavely though and be non-denomonational of course, but exhortation is something that's a lot harder to argue over.

BTW, I think people have a false interpretation of my view of women. PM me and I'll tell you what my view of women and their roles are.

[uc pseudonym]

Perhaps it would be best if you defined what you mean by "exhortation." I think I know what you're talking about, but I wouldn't want to make an assumption (as I'm a little vague) and others might not know.

[Michael]

'Exhortation' as in encouragement toward leading a Godly life and God using you to lead others into such a life.

[Kokhiri Sojourn]

I am quite impressed that for the most part, this discussion has seemed to go without grudge and heat behind words, and in that, I am impressed at the maturity of the people involved. However, I don't think I'll share my thoughts on the issue. I haven't been here actively for long enough to justify having a say in wether the Bible Study stays or goes. I just wanted to encourage you all to leave your differences aside as we are one body of Christ, the church. There will be MANY differences, and those are important, but remember the perspective - that we all (Christians) serve the only true God. I benefitted from reading this thread, all.

[Fsiphskilm]

(Oh great, I think I might ge

[Gremio]

How is it woman bashing? You are seriously misinformed, G-d has set special roles for men and special ones women can do, neither is more important than the other.
Your flying off the deep end for no reason whatsoever. Praise G-d that a woman saved you, and woman are just as capable as sharing the gospel as men, but there is a difference between that and ordained teaching.

There is NOTHING wrong IMHO in Gypsy's proclaiming of G-ds truth, infact I enjoy it ^_^

Like I said, lets just let this topic return in some way to its original point. If we could somehow keep bible study centered around safe topics that would be integeral throughout all denominations of christianity. like.....em......@_@ well its harder than I thought, anyone any ideas?

[Ashley]

Volt, first of all let me ask you to calm down. The rest of us have been discussing this in a relatively calm, mature way for the most part. Even the women on the staff (myself, Gypsy, Inkhana) responded in a controlled way.

If you want to make this a "court room" like debate, you're barking up the wrong tree. You know the rules about debate. But if you still feel the need to voice your opinion, why don't you join Michael, UC, Oldphil and anyone else I may not know of in taking the discussion off-boards: either pm, email, chat, etc.

[Michael]

Listen, I don't hate women. PM me if you really want to know my opinion and I'll be happy to share it. Then you can make whatever arguments you want freely.

[Fsiphskilm]

[quote="Ashley"]Volt, first

[Mithrandir]

I'm with KS. I was forced to not login for a few days after that last post, and I feared it might get ugly. After seeing how everyone here behaved themselves, I was truely blessed. You guys are AWESOME!

[uc pseudonym]

I'm with the crowd of people that is very grateful there was not a vicious argument here. I winced the instant I saw the topic... but days later nothing has exploded. I'm pleased.

You guys know how I'm emotion driven and really try to understand what people "mean" and not what they "say". The way everyone's been encoding their feelings lately has thrown me into a state of paraniod confusion.

By the by, don't ever bother to do this with me. There is never any emotion behind my words... or my actions... or my thoughts. Regardless, the only thing you need to look out for is sarcasm/cynicism. A bit off your mind.

[Rev. Doc]

Hi gang. First off, I would like to apologize for my absence of posting for quite some time now. These past few months have been extremely busy for me and for the life of my church. Christmas of course carries with it extra responsibilities, and for some reason, sickness and hospitalizations always seem to hit hardest during the month of December.

While I have not posted a great deal that does not mean I have ignored you. I have been quietly living the life of an observer trying to keep up with what is going on. When I have opportunity I first go to the prayer posts. I continually watch for the needs you have and place them on my prayer list. I lift you and the ministry here up to the Lord on a daily basis. Secondly, I make sure to read any Bible Studies that have been added to that section. And for fun when I am able I always check out the general stuff and anime when I have the time.

I just want to say how encouraged I am by the depth of spiritual maturity and sensitivity I find here at CAA. The leadership of the administration and moderating shows evidence of love and compassion and is a wonderful example to all that visit this site. It is uplifting to me as a pastor to see young people so dedicated to our Lord. It shows that God is in the process of developing leadership for His church that will give a living witness of His grace and mercy to a dark world in the days ahead.

This is seen especially in the Bible Study Forum. This most of all is a forum for learning and the exchange of ideas. I am flattered to be considered as one who may be “qualifiedâ€

[Fsiphskilm]

*OOOOOOoooooooo* I marvel at yo

[Michael]

I think this thread has come to a comfortable stalemate. I never expected the forum to be closed, and I never expected Gypsy to step down. But I chose to fight that battle. I hope there are no hard feelings from anyone.

Gypsy, you're a wonderful person with a long life ahead of you. I never meant to hurt you. May He bless you and keep you, may he make his face to shine upon you and give you peace. Amen.

[Mithrandir]

Michael - You have been pretty mature in this thread. You state what you believe, unabashedly. You accept what others say, without demanding that they conform to your world view. This shows an ammount of maturity, and it seems to be that you were simply responding to you beliefs. You have not be immature, and I don't think you have hurt anyone's feelings. Overall, as I have stated before, this has been a very mature conversation. It's rather appropriate that a topic which can have such a large ammount of hostility be one that is a demonstration of grace and maturity. Thanks!

[Kokhiri Sojourn]

I totally agree with Oldphilosopher. I respect the way you went about this discussion, and hope the Lord will strengthen you to be strong in Him and His Word, as you exhibit these traits now. See ya around the forums.

[uc pseudonym]

Glad to see this resolved... hopefully permanently. I'll be keeping this thread in mind if I ever need proof that Christians can discuss without arguing.

[Gypsy]

Gypsy, you're a wonderful person with a long life ahead of you. I never meant to hurt you. May He bless you and keep you, may he make his face to shine upon you and give you peace. Amen.

Well, for what it's worth, you didn't hurt me. I never took it personally, because I understood that wasn't your intention. I just happened to be ... the representative at the time, I guess you should say. However, it did force me to step back and really look at some things from a different view - and that's never a bad thing. Thanks for your good attitude!

[true_noir_chloe]

What did you all decide regarding the Bible Study? Did I miss it? BTW, I really appreciated Rev.Doc's words of wisdom. Gypsy, are you still going to have a Bible study when you feel led? You are going to keep the Bible Study section, right? Okay, that's all my questions for now. ^_^

[uc pseudonym]

Hmm... I'm not sure why I'm answering Gypsy's question. Correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

This thread is basically over, and also basically null. No decision has been made, which means we're going with the status quo.

[Michael]

Well, thanks all. I really appreciate how peaceful this thread has gone.

Thanks Volt for speaking your mind.