Pardon me, your ignorance has just insulted us all.

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:32 pm

I'm normally not a very big fan of modern American sitcoms (classic American sitcoms are a different matter, but. . .). Nevertheless, my parents are, and a few minutes ago, while I was eating, a sitcom my mother likes called "Yes, Dear" was on CBS.

So anyway, tonight's episode was about the father of one of the main characters getting obsessed with collecting comic books. Maybe I'm too sensitive about ignorant insults, but one of the jokes related to that definitely didn't make me laugh.

One character said to another a line that went approximately like "At least he's not into those pornographic Japanese comics" and went on to remark about "Legend of the Overfiend," basically painting all manga with that brush.
:mutter:

Postby **Benu** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:37 pm

Wha? Even non-christians say it's porn? What's america coming too!

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:39 pm

Ignorance crosses all boundaries LOL

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:41 pm

Hmm, maybe, but what I wrote was approximate. I think what I heard was more like the latter thing that you said. . .I need to find a transcript to settle that LOL. I'm sorry for posting without proper documentation and sources. :red:

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:44 pm

"those pornographic japanese comics" is a common phrase uttered by people in refferecne to all manga, much as "those pornographic japanese cartoons" is common in refference to all anime. See, they don't have to say that "all" anime and manga is pornographic, the inferrence that there is something wrong with all of it is clear by saying that even some of them are....

Quoting from a conversation I had with my neice "I heard that a lot of those have nudity in them."

I said "Well, you still watch live action movies even though some live action movies have nudity in them"

She said, no joke, "Well, I certainly would stop watching them if they had nudity in them." and completely twisted around what I said and missed my whole point. See, despite the fact that

1. She watches American live action movies
2. Some of those movies (though not the ones she watches) have some stuff she wouldn't approve of.

She can't get it through her brain to apply the same logic to anime because anime is "foreign" and from an overwhelmingly buddhist (and shinto, but I don't think she even knows what that is) country makes it somehow that much more "dangerous" than something from a "Christian" society like the US... Ignoring pre-WWII stuff, I'd say there has been a lot more damage done to Christianity from "christian" US than from Buddhist/shinto Japan...

That's why I am very scared to bring up my hobby to friends and family... And still so...

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:47 pm

Bobtheduck wrote:"those pornographic japanese comics" is a common phrase uttered by people in refferecne to all manga, much as "those pornographic japanese cartoons" is common in refference to all anime. See, they don't have to say that "all" anime and manga is pornographic, the inferrence that there is something wrong with all of it is clear by saying that even some of them are....

Quoting from a conversation I had with my neice "I heard that a lot of those have nudity in them."

I said "Well, you still watch live action movies even though some live action movies have nudity in them"

She said, no joke, "Well, I certainly would stop watching them if they had nudity in them." and completely twisted around what I said and missed my whole point. See, despite the fact that

1. She watches American live action movies
2. Some of those movies (though not the ones she watches) have some stuff she wouldn't approve of.

She can't get it through her brain to apply the same logic to anime because anime is "foreign" and from an overwhelmingly buddhist (and shinto, but I don't think she even knows what that is) country makes it somehow that much more "dangerous" than something from a "Christian" society like the US... Ignoring pre-WWII stuff, I'd say there has been a lot more damage done to Christianity from "christian" US than from Buddhist/shinto Japan...

That's why I am very scared to bring up my hobby to friends and family... And still so...

Agreed, good post. -^.^-

Postby **RefractedAhav** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:21 am

I haven't really ran into that kind of ignorance yet. Most of the people I have mentioned aren't quit shure what anime is. The only ignorence I've encounted was in the younger anime community. What I mean is that some people will say that an anime is not an anime just becuse the don't like it. :bang:

Postby **SailorX** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:47 am

I know what you all mean! I dunno why, but my mother EXTREMELY made me offended and mad when She told me to stop watching anime. I was all "Why?" And she said, "Bcause they are just as bad as porn." I think she meant hentai, but still, just becaue I watch anime, she thought I watched that!. I got mad because she knows how sacred sex is to me.

But not all, but some magna have nudity, Like Inuyasha shows Kagome and Sango topless when they are taking their "hot spring bath". The anime of course doesn't, except if you count bare behinds. People made a big deal about the last episode of Sailor moon Where she turns into a angel who looked naked. She does look naked, but it lookes like she's wearing a liatard the same color as her skin. My parents got on me about THAT! They saw my Sailor X- Sailor Moon Stars- Evanescence- Whisper video (which can be seen at http://www.geocities.com/sailorxproductionstudio/videos.html ) and thought just because "people might think she's naked" that I shouldn't watch it.

And how the person sounded like on the show kind of sounded racist

I wish people wouldn't judge anime by one cartoon. ACK

Postby **MasterDias** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:46 pm

I'm not really much of a fan of most modern American sitcoms either. Jokes like that tend to annoy me.

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:36 pm

Umm.. in the last ep of stars, she is naked... She just doesn't have certain qualifyers, so yeah, it looks as if she's wearing a skin colored leotard. But of course, the nudity was meant to symbolize something too, but she is most definately naked... [spoiler="definition of Barbiedollism"]She has no nipples, no sexual organs, and she doesnt even have >>bounce<< like ryoko does in Tenchi... Shes got a butt crack and thats about it[/spoiler]

I don't see anything wrong with that ep, by the way, and think it makes a great conclusion, but I mean, it's not just "looks like" it IS.

If anyone has watched adult swim, there was this show about basically ubergeeks, and one scene took place in a comic book store. Under a heading "Adult Comics" there was a book labeled "Manga" once again equating all manga with porn. (notice, though, that many of the books in the adult section in the comic book stores are american... Most, in fact...)

Also, in this book I read about Japan, they said "However, there is one big social problem in Japan... There are pornographic comic books known as "Manga" and they are everywhere" not an exact quote (it was like 5 years ago I read this) but it was in a guide to japan that an ignorant racist comment like this showed up... I swear, it's just wrong how many people are like that...

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:53 pm

about the last ep of sailormoon.. I think the point is to show that she's naked without completely showing her naked... While most would just cover up, I think that these animators chose instead to just avoid showing the more controversial parts... Maybe I'm just trying to hard, I don't know...

SM isn't the first anime to have barbiedollism... But, Japanese animators have been really good all along at showing everything without showing everything... It all goes back to old japanese drawings that relied on optical illusions to make you see in your mind more than was really there... I think that as a whole, this ability is quite good... It's how we see noses when there are none drawn, how we fill in the blanks and don't even notice it... See, american animators as a whole don't know how to do this... Hence, we see things drawn that clog up the character, and focus on things that are better left assumed... That's what I like about the style in most anime, a better ability to know what to draw and what to make your mind fill in.

Postby **Michael** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:39 pm

You know what? I don't care. I like anime, 'nuff said. Other people don't have to like it, and I'm not going to go on and on about how they've got it wrong. Chances are they don't care what I have to say on the subject. Even other anime fans have ripped down stuff I liked.
Bottom line is: We like anime, they don't have to.

This forum seems to have a lot of threads like this.

Postby **RefractedAhav** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:02 pm

It's not just anime or manga that people are closed minded about, it is anything from any cultur or any sub-cultur that the see as forieghn. America ,unfortantly, as a majority has a history of this state of mind.

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:45 pm

Michael wrote:You know what? I don't care. I like anime, 'nuff said. Other people don't have to like it, and I'm not going to go on and on about how they've got it wrong. Chances are they don't care what I have to say on the subject. Even other anime fans have ripped down stuff I liked.
Bottom line is: We like anime, they don't have to.

This forum seems to have a lot of threads like this.

Apathy, or should I say rebelious independence (which often looks like apathy, but is actually very passionate), only gets you so far. Besides, this is sort of a place where we can get things off our chest, too, so a lot of us do have problems with that sort of thing. It does bug us and it's good to be able to talk about it.

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:08 am

And it's not that those of us who complain *want* everyone to like anime or manga (that seems to be quite a common misunderstanding), it IS that we want people to not make ignorant, uninformed, wrong, and yes, bigoted statements about us and our interests.

For example, let's say you liked gardening. Now, I dislike gardening, and I don't have to like gardening. However, if I accused you and all home gardeners of being "secret marijuana farmers using flowers and tomatoes as a cover for their illicit conduct," you as a gardener would have every right to insist that the record be set straight.

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:20 am

MillyFan wrote:And it's not that those of us who complain *want* everyone to like anime or manga (that seems to be quite a common misunderstanding), it IS that we want people to not make ignorant, uninformed, wrong, and yes, bigoted statements about us and our interests.

For example, let's say you liked gardening. Now, I dislike gardening, and I don't have to like gardening. However, if I accused you and all home gardeners of being "secret marijuana farmers using flowers and tomatoes as a cover for their illicit conduct," you as a gardener would have every right to insist that the record be set straight.

That is the single best analogy I have heard yet in this subject... Thank you Milly. I will be using that in conversation...

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 3:25 am

And thank you for the compliment

Postby **Michael** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:01 pm

<Apathy, or should I say rebelious independence (which often looks like apathy, but is actually very passionate), only gets you so far. Besides, this is sort of a place where we can get things off our chest, too, so a lot of us do have problems with that sort of thing. It does bug us and it's good to be able to talk about it.>

Ahhhh, you know what, you're right. I'm just as annoyed as MillyFan about people like that.

Postby **shamanking343** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 9:10 pm

just saying that I have run ins with that at school and stuff. And in the "compleate guide to anime" it says that manga and anime is a artistic expression from the japanise artists so.....its art. And that in the 70's and early 80's it would have been porn because they didnt cover up the genitals. But they banned the showing of genitals in 1985 because of well you get the idea. So saying this simply Its not porn! :stressed:

Postby **Mithrandir** » Fri Oct 03, 2003 3:08 pm

MasterDias wrote:I'm not really much of a fan of most modern American sitcoms either. Jokes like that tend to annoy me.

Yeah. I pretty much only watch jeopardy and food network.

Postby **DanekJovax** » Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:58 pm

Hmm... this ojiisan has had run-ins with several people in the past, either singly or in groups of other like-minded individuals, that have held the long otaku-hated myth of "Anime/Manga is Porno".

Like how we handle those that dislike the message of the Gospel, I try to dissuade these ignorant anime/manga haters of the err of their view, by using analogies much like MillyFan's (which I'll agree is one of the best I've seen in a while).

As long as these people can see the meaning of the analogy, and be shown that "Anime" and "Manga" mean simply "Animation" and "Comic" respectively, they usually recant most of their original claims.

I usually used analogies related to the US movie and book industries, making theoretical scenarios depicting views stating that "all Hollywood 'flicks as porno" and "D.C. and Marvel cranking out nothing but smut". Most people will disagree with these statements, and when I ask them "Can you explain why do you disagree with that statement?", they give me the same answer as to why I can't agree with their anime/manga stereotype.

Just letting them explain the reasons for you sometimes helps a lot in getting them to see the problems with their viewpoint.

Pardon me, your ignorance has just insulted us all.

Do you think this joke was ignorant?

Pardon me, your ignorance has just insulted us all.

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