Talking To My Agnostic Friend

[Princess Kairi]

I joined this forum about two years ago and haven't been very active since then, but I've run into a problem and searching for help has led me here.

I'm going to start off with a little bit of background before I get to the problem. Four years ago, I met a guy on a forum I joined. Since then, we have become extremely close. We've had some hard times and our friendship was tested, but we made it through and now we want to be in a relationship, but not knowing each other personally is stopping us. We have voice and video chatted, but we have never met in person. Anyway, early in our friendship he told me he was Catholic. A couple of weeks ago he admitted to me that he had turned agnostic and that's where the problem is. Since he told me that, I have given him evidence that God is real and he accepted it. He even told me that I had him convinced, but he still didn't believe. He promised me that he would stay open-minded and agreed to do a Bible session every night, but I'm not completely sure on how to talk to him. Some nights seem to go really well, but other nights, not so much. It's like he takes a few small steps forward then a huge step back.

Last night we got on the topic of God being the head of the family and he asked me if us being together would be possible even if he didn't start believing and I told him it would be difficult. I didn't really know what else to tell him.

I've never really done anything like this so any advice would be appreciated.

[John_Smith]

This is tricky.

I’m going to tell you right off about my own relationship philosophy: that if someone isn’t a Christian, then I don’t even consider them as a possible partner (no offence to non-believers). I think you need to decide if you agree with this sentiment or not. In my opinion, the worse thing you can do is get more involved and not have a clear belief on that.

Trying to witness to him is good. But what if he does convert? What would his motivations be for converting? Is it to be with you? If so, would he really he a believer; would he really be saved? No one here can answer these questions.
Furthermore, the most important thing you need to ask yourself this: Is this the guy that God wants you to be with? If the answer to this is no, then you need to stop the idea entirely, as difficult as it may be.

I’m not going to tell you that getting involved with this guy is an all out bad idea, but know that it can be a very complicated road. All I can say is: put God first.

There is also one other piece of advice I would give, but you’ve already been doing it: being honest with him. He probably wants to be friends first, and doesn’t want to ruin that anymore than you do.

[Princess Kairi]

Thank you for answering.

Furthermore, the most important thing you need to ask yourself this: Is this the guy that God wants you to be with? If the answer to this is no, then you need to stop the idea entirely, as difficult as it may be.

I truly believe he is. I've talked to God about it and there have been signs telling me that he is.

Thank you for the advice. I'll seriously think about it.

[PandaPop]

I actually have a friend in a similar situation, but he is much further along in the relationship, and let me just say it will be difficult (as you mentioned) if he does not truly turn to God, and even if you love him (or end up loving him) that broken link between the two of you will cause strife.
Also,
2 Corinthians 6:14- "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?"
We really need our mate to be saved as well so we can strengthen each other and grow together.
As a fellow Christian all I can say is look to Gods word for answers.
As long as you are talking to him about God though remember this
Isaiah 55:11- "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it"
Gods word does not return void, you never know when something could hit him and if he is willing to do bible studies with you that is great, he's not running away yet!
As great at it is though that you are sharing Gods word with him, just don't sacrifice you own relationship with God for your want to be with him, sometimes things seem right to us but when we read the bible we find that what seemed so right contradicts the bible.
That all being said, I feel for you, I can't imagine how difficult it must be to see someone you care about and want to be with turning from God. You and him have my prayers

[K. Ayato]

I married a guy I was convinced was a Christian. It wasn't too long after are wedding date that I slowly realized it was all an act. Compromise on my part began to seep in and it started to affect my relationship with God and other Believers. And now he's in the process of divorcing me.
PLEASE step out of this "relationship" and realize this is NOT a good idea. This isn't God talking to you, telling you this guy is "the one". It's your emotions taking over.

[Princess Kairi]

First of all I would like to say thanks for all the advice. I have, and will continue to, sincerely think about it.

Tonight's session went very smoothly. I talked about the prophecies in the Old Testament being fulfilled by Jesus in the New Testament, especially the one in Isaiah: 53 about his death. He told me he still wasn't completely convinced, but he was convinced that what I told him was true.

Help, advice, and prayers are still appreciated. Thank you so much!

[Lynna]

2 Corinthians 6:14- "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

I agree with you and all, but this verse is actually used out of context very frequently to support this argument, despite the fact that there is no evidence Paul was talking about marriage when he said that.
That being said, there are obvious disadvantages with marrying an unbeliever. I realise that some couples who are able to work it out, but others find it very lonely to not be able to share their faith with the one most important to them. Since marriage is factoring in here and because it is such a big decision, I would recommend spending a long time praying about this and thinking before you decide. And if you internally come to the conclusion that you should break it off, don't fight it. If you let it continue too long even though you know it won't work, it will only hurt more.
Oh. But don't tell him you're breaking up with him because God told you to. Because that will probably seem like an excuse.
And I'm glad things are getting better

[Atria35]

It's pretty obvious that you're very into having him convert, and my first piece of advice is to take a step back and think about whether you are putting pressure on him to say that he is a believer solely to ease that off and so that he can be with you. If he is doing it just to make you happy, that's no good. And I have to admit, the way you're wording things makes me feel that there could be some of that there.

And now, hypothesis time!
- If he converts, could you really truly feel that everything is good.... Even if he converts to a denomination that is drastically different from yours? Could you truly be at peace if he was, say, Mormon while you're Catholic (I don't know what denomination you are so I'm just throwing stuff out here), or Pentacostal while you're Episcapalian? Or Unitarian while you don't have a denomination?

The reason why I ask is because I always see/hear people saying that its totally okay as long as they are Christian, but there is always a chance that when/if they are, they will have beliefs that are in total opposition with yours EXCEPT for the fact that they believe in Jesus. You would be making the same complete and total compromises in those situations as you would for someone who is agnostic.

I would honestly say to count your blessings and let things fall where they may, because it is an incredible rare gift to find someone who 100% wholeheartedly supports your beliefs even when they personally don't share them. You don't JUST have tht... You have someone who not only 100% wholeheartedly supports your beliefs, but is willing to go along with you when you want to discuss them with him, is willing to work with you to make the relationship work around his beliefs, and likes you enough to do all the giving and discussion and entertaining of beliefs when you want to. Because you are not entertaining or compromising for him.

You can't find that kind of relationship happening often even within the same church.

He is a rare gem, and to write him off or get frustrated simply by his lack of faith makes me feel that you would be the one losing out on that relationship.

[Nate]

but this verse is actually used out of context very frequently to support this argument, despite the fact that there is no evidence Paul was talking about marriage when he said that.

Thank you for saying it because if you didn't I definitely was going to.

It's pretty obvious that you're very into having him convert, and my first piece of advice is to take a step back and think about whether you are putting pressure on him to say that he is a believer solely to ease that off and so that he can be with you. If he is doing it just to make you happy, that's no good.

Yeah I can see him saying "Yeah I totally agree with what you're saying, yep," as not really a sign of agreement but more of "If I say I'll agree then she'll shut up about it and I won't have to argue with her."

Which honestly if someone kept pestering me like that I'd probably do the same thing.

[Princess Kairi]

Atria and Nate, I understand that and completely agree, but he isn't just agreeing with what I'm saying. He challenges a lot of what I say and we've gotten into a few debates concerning this. We both understand that there is a lot that the other doesn't agree on. If there's something I say that he has questions on or that he can't completely accept, he asks me and I do the same to him. We both talk during our sessions, not just me. He asks questions on what I believe and I ask questions on what he believes.

We actually talked a little last night about why we were doing this. He wants to. Tuesday night we even started really early because he was excited and wanted to start early.

Thank you, Lynna. I needed to hear that. I was really worried that being with an unbeliever was against the Bible. I still believe that he is the one God intends me to be with. Every time I start having doubts about it, I get a new sign.

[Nate]

Ah okay, that first part didn't come through in what you had said previously.

Being with an unbeliever isn't against the Bible, in fact 1 Corinthians 7 specifically says that believers who are married to unbelievers should stay with their spouse. Now, I guess you could make the argument that he's talking about two believers who married and one of them became an unbeliever, but regardless the fact remains that it is not condemned.

Now that said, the reason that people say it isn't good to be with an unbeliever is because it could potentially cause unnecessary stress and argument, and not having a spouse who is strong in their faith could possibly lead to your own faith weakening as well. But there's no command to not get romantically involved with unbelievers.

[Princess Kairi]

I should have been more clear. Sorry about that.

I get that. That's why I told him it would be difficult for us to be together, but I also see the positive side. I could serve as an example. He told me that he knew a guy that was agnostic like him, but his family was Catholic. Even though he didn't believe what they believed, he still went to church with them to support their religion and he learns from it even if he doesn't take everything to heart. If that happens, it's possible for him to hear something that clicks.

I realize that, yet I'm still worried. I'm worried about him and I'm worried about what may happen to us in the future.

[PandaPop]

Yoked- a device for joining together a pair of draft animals, especially oxen, usually consisting of a crosspiece with two bow-shaped pieces, each enclosing the head of an animal.
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers
Marriage is a joining together of two people and then they become ONE.
The context of the verse is very clearly about our relationships with people (marriage being a relationship, one of the strongest we can form on this earth) but it is not just for marriage it is for many relationships, If you read it in context (at least 20 verses before and after) it is clear. If you do not take this verse as literally talking about our human relationships, then it makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

[Xeno]

Yoked- a device for joining together a pair of draft animals, especially oxen, usually consisting of a crosspiece with two bow-shaped pieces, each enclosing the head of an animal.
Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers
Marriage is a joining together of two people and then they become ONE.
The context of the verse is very clearly about our relationships with people (marriage being a relationship, one of the strongest we can form on this earth) but it is not just for marriage it is for many relationships, If you read it in context (at least 20 verses before and after) it is clear. If you do not take this verse as literally talking about our human relationships, then it makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

Cross reference shows 2 Corinthians 6:14 is referring to Deuteronomy 22:10. While I would typically agree that the implications are towards general partnerships, I have to agree that marriage is also included in what Paul was talking about. The greater issues one has to take into account though is that this was a letter to the church at Corinth, which everyone knows had some serious problems with just about everything, and that understanding this in modern day terms it doesn't necessarily translate to exactly "Christians can't marry non-Christians." Had Paul been trying to say that he would have more than likely made mention of mixing two different kinds of fibers as opposed to using two two different kinds of animals that would be considered "unequally yoked." Using this same understanding an Episcopalian and a Methodist are unequally yoked if married because their understandings of Christianity are different.

To this, Paul simply answers that they cannot be mixed, that God's people must be marked by a different kind of lifestyle than others, and that lifestyle cannot be mixed with a pagan lifestyle. Using the OT principle of preserving boundaries between things that should not be mixed, Paul simply says that being Christian means that the Corinthians can no longer practice the activities of pagan worship or pagan ethics, since those are things that should not be mixed with the worship of God. In other words, what they did ethically mattered a great deal if they were claiming to be Christians.

Practically, this could apply to a lot of areas of life, but not as a rigid law. It is a matter of ethics that must come from the freedom in Christ that Paul makes clear. But that freedom does not mean, Paul contends, that we are not compelled by love of both God and neighbor. So, it might, indeed, have some practical ethical application in the case of a Christian dating or marrying a non-Christian. Again, it is not a matter of law. But it is a matter of allowing God to be God, and recognizing that when we are his people, his sons and daughters (2 Cor 6:18), that means we are in a relationship of love that constrains our freedom for the sake of that love (1 Cor 13).

The result is a lifestyle that is "cleansed" from such contamination with pagan practices as visiting temple prostitutes (2 Cor 7:1), because someone who truly loves God as a son or daughter would not contaminate themselves with such practices. In others words, Paul is simply answering that it does, indeed, make a difference what the body does since that cannot be separated from who we are as sons and daughters of God.

Of course, the next question will be, "But what does that mean today?" We want a single answer to this question, a list of rules to follow. And we too often either fall in love with the list of rules we make (legalism), or we revert back to the Corinthian view and think that there really are no rules (postmodern relativism). Yet what Paul calls us to in Corinthians is a lifestyle that is governed by love (cf. 1 Cor 13). That is really what separates us from the "unclean" things around us. And Paul notes in another writing that it is often up to us to decide how we should practice that love as Christians (cf. Phil 2:12-23: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure."). That simply places a great deal of emphasis on Christian ethics, not as law, but as the outworking of the "royal law of love" as John Wesley was so fond of quoting (James 2:8; see James and the Law). And that principle is precisely what Paul is using in the letters to the church at Corinth (for example, 1 Cor 13).

Source: http://www.crivoice.org/yoked.html

[Nate]

The context of the verse is very clearly about our relationships with people (marriage being a relationship, one of the strongest we can form on this earth) but it is not just for marriage it is for many relationships, If you read it in context (at least 20 verses before and after) it is clear. If you do not take this verse as literally talking about our human relationships, then it makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

Are you sure the context supports what you're saying? Let's take a look at the context, shall we?

What do the verses directly before the "unequally yoked" verse say?

11 We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. 13 In return (I speak as to children) widen your hearts also.

So Paul is talking directly to the Corinthians. He says he's spoken freely and his heart is wide open, but their hearts are restricted, and he's telling them to be more open towards him.

Now, Paul says the stuff about being unequally yoked. Okay, maybe he decided he'd said his piece about the Corinthians being shut off from him and switched gears to marriage. But what does he say after that?

2 Make room in your hearts for us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one. 3 I do not say this to condemn you, for I said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together. 4 I am acting with great boldness toward you; I have great pride in you; I am filled with comfort. In all our affliction, I am overflowing with joy.

Wait, what? Now he's once again urging the Corinthians to make room in their hearts for him, and reiterates that they are in his heart.

So...the context you're claiming doesn't make any sense. You're saying Paul was talking to the Corinthians, saying to open their hearts to him, then makes a completely off-topic comment about marriage, then goes back to saying to open their hearts to him? That's ridiculous. That's not a logical flow of topics and wouldn't make any sense in a letter. None of the context of the surrounding verses talks about marriage, the context of the surrounding verses is Paul telling the Corinthians that their hearts are closed to him.

So, if you actually do look at the context of the verses, it's pretty much impossible that Paul is referring to marriage when he talks about being unequally yoked, unless you're saying he wants to marry the Corinthians?

[John_Smith]

So I wrote this and stared at it for fifteen minutes and finally decided to just post it:

I think arguing about this verse is a distraction. In either case, it’s warning about being affected negatively by a nonbeliever. Keep this is mind.

Conventional wisdom says this won't work. And to be honest, I was surprised when I saw the confident answer you had to my post. In most cases, I would say, alright, then what are you waiting for? But you should also consider K. Ayato's post. I don't want to question what you call signs, however there have been many to have said similar things, only to be wrong. Missionary dating can be one step away from just letting your relationship with God slip. You spend this time getting to know a person, and in that time you convince yourself that he's the one for you. Once then, how easy is it to go down a road you aren't supposed to be?

Don't get me wrong, I want to say that it will work out, and he'll soon convert. But the truth is most of these situations don't end well. I'm being cynical because I think you considering these things are the only way how it could possibly work. Whatever you do, do with God. You have my prayers.

Also, if you haven't already done this, you should find a friend, as in a non-computer friend to talk to about this. Christian preferred. Or your pastor.

[Xeno]

Ultimately it will boil down to how well your values match up. If both of you hold the same values then there really is no problem (and yelling about 2 Corinthians turns into a legalistic matter). If for some reason you find yourself having to compromise on your value system then it is something you should think about more. Of course this isn't to say you're both going to have the exact same opinions on things, and if one of you is more liberal than the other in views then that is still okay. Inter-faith marriages are capable of working. It's about the involved parties being willing to be honest and communicate and concede things where they feel comfortable doing so without it infringing on their core values.

Example: You might think universal healthcare is a human right and that it should be provided at the government's expense. He might think that healthcare is something that should be solely up to the individual to acquire, and government has no place in regulating or assisting with providing it.

These widely different opinions don't necessarily reflect your core values of whether or not you respect human life, in fact the opinions could be based entirely on the role of government and not at all on healthcare. Communication would allow the two of you to understand why you have the views you do, and then with those understandings be able to accept the different views or try to change the view of the other. If it turns out that the reason one of you feels the way you do violates a core value, then you can end the relationship.

This applies to all aspects. If his not believing, or more accurately not-being-sure-enough-to-believe, is going to making things too difficult for you then it's best you don't allow yourself to be in a more serious relationship with him. If its something you can accept, that you're religious and he may never be able to believe in the things you do for whatever his reasons may be, then work with him on the things you can agree on.

[shooraijin]

May I say, by way of a positive observation for a change, that I wish all the CG Q&A threads were as reasonable and well-considered as this one, even though there are some significant divergences in viewpoint.

[PandaPop]

So I wrote this and stared at it for fifteen minutes and finally decided to just post it:

I think arguing about this verse is a distraction. In either case, it’s warning about being affected negatively by a nonbeliever. Keep this is mind.

Conventional wisdom says this won't work. And to be honest, I was surprised when I saw the confident answer you had to my post. In most cases, I would say, alright, then what are you waiting for? But you should also consider K. Ayato's post. I don't want to question what you call signs, however there have been many to have said similar things, only to be wrong. Missionary dating can be one step away from just letting your relationship with God slip. You spend this time getting to know a person, and in that time you convince yourself that he's the one for you. Once then, how easy is it to go down a road you aren't supposed to be?

Don't get me wrong, I want to say that it will work out, and he'll soon convert. But the truth is most of these situations don't end well. I'm being cynical because I think you considering these things are the only way how it could possibly work. Whatever you do, do with God. You have my prayers.

Also, if you haven't already done this, you should find a friend, as in a non-computer friend to talk to about this. Christian preferred. Or your pastor.

Really like what you wrote!

[Princess Kairi]

So I wrote this and stared at it for fifteen minutes and finally decided to just post it:

I think arguing about this verse is a distraction. In either case, it’s warning about being affected negatively by a nonbeliever. Keep this is mind.

Conventional wisdom says this won't work. And to be honest, I was surprised when I saw the confident answer you had to my post. In most cases, I would say, alright, then what are you waiting for? But you should also consider K. Ayato's post. I don't want to question what you call signs, however there have been many to have said similar things, only to be wrong. Missionary dating can be one step away from just letting your relationship with God slip. You spend this time getting to know a person, and in that time you convince yourself that he's the one for you. Once then, how easy is it to go down a road you aren't supposed to be?

Don't get me wrong, I want to say that it will work out, and he'll soon convert. But the truth is most of these situations don't end well. I'm being cynical because I think you considering these things are the only way how it could possibly work. Whatever you do, do with God. You have my prayers.

Also, if you haven't already done this, you should find a friend, as in a non-computer friend to talk to about this. Christian preferred. Or your pastor.

I've been thinking about this a lot the past few days. I got most of the signs over this past year, before he even told me he was agnostic and once he told me, I honestly wasn't surprised because I kind of sensed it. After he told me, I bluntly told him I'm wasn't going to hold back what I believed and if he tried forcing me to choose him or God, he would lose every time. He didn't even have to think about it before telling me that he didn't want me to. The Bible sessions started when I was just telling him that I was going to start reading "The Purpose Driven Life." I told him a little about the book and gave him a quote that was in it that he found interesting and he asked if I would explain each chapter to him. I realized after the first few chapters, he wasn't ready for the things it was talking about so I asked if we could try other things and he agreed. It seems to me that he wants to learn, and doing this is helping me learn as well. I'm being challenged to find ways to explain things in a way that he will understand while learning and understanding things I didn't before at the same time. I feel like this is helping me grow while I teach him.

I've talked to different people like this, but not quite this much. I've talked with my pastor's wife more than my pastor about it because I'm more comfortable talking to her about it, but I've been thinking that I should talk to my pastor. I'll probably do that tomorrow or Sunday.

[Nate]

Inter-faith marriages are capable of working.

One of the strongest marriages I know is between a Muslim and a Wiccan.

I've talked to different people like this, but not quite this much. I've talked with my pastor's wife more than my pastor about it because I'm more comfortable talking to her about it, but I've been thinking that I should talk to my pastor. I'll probably do that tomorrow or Sunday.

I think, and this is just advice from personal experience, you should keep in mind that "God wants this for me" does not equate to "It will work out." I was in a relationship that both myself and the girl I got involved with were sure that God was telling us to go for. It ended very painfully for me. Now, looking back on it, I can say that I still believe God wanted me to get into that relationship, but it was for the purposes of making me a better person and teaching me about myself. While I still feel we were right that it was what God wanted, we were just gravely mistaken about how it would turn out.

So, keep that in mind. I'm not saying to go in with a pessimistic attitude or to not believe this is the guy you'll marry. He may very well be, I'm just saying if you get into the relationship and it doesn't work out, don't think that "I was wrong about what God wanted."

[K. Ayato]

Couldn't have said it better, Nate. Same goes with me and my near-over marriage.

[randomuser2349]

I'd say if you're not religiously identical or at least similar, you should not be marrying them. That will cause so many issues later in life.

[Nate]

I'd say if you're not religiously identical or at least similar, you should not be marrying them. That will cause so many issues later in life.

Who defines what "similar" is?

[Princess Kairi]

Things are starting to go really well and I have no doubt it's because of all the prayers. He seems to be slowly starting to understand more and more. I've been using different methods, trying to find the right one for him and I think music is the best way. I've been trying to find Christian bands that fit his style of music. He likes BarlowGirl, The Color Black, Red, and a few songs by Skillet. I've given him one song by TobyMac and even though he didn't like the style, he liked the lyrics and really studied them. What else can I give him?

[K. Ayato]

Try Kutless .

[Princess Kairi]

Try Kutless .

Alright. Any songs in particular?

[drill]

Even If, Strong Tower, What Faith Can Do, and We Fall Down are all good Kutless songs. There are other songs too, but I would start there if I were you.

[K. Ayato]

Start with the album Sea of Faces and onward. Can't go wrong there. Quick list of song suggestions include:

Not What You See
Let You In
It's Like Me
Sea of Faces
Shut Me Out
Million Dollar Man
Somewhere in the Sky
Changing World
Promise of a Lifetime
To Know That You're Alive
Loud
I Do Not Belong

[rocklobster]

How about a book? The Case For Christ is an excellent one, as is C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity. Heck, anything by CS Lewis.