Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K General Discussion

[Peanut]

I checked Tyranids and none of the prices look any different. What army were you looking at? New ownership can be a good or really bad thing. Prices going up wouldn't surprise me but, at the same time, maybe stuff like their digital books will take a price dive so, you know, people will buy them...

[Yamamaya]

I checked Tyranids and none of the prices look any different. What army were you looking at? New ownership can be a good or really bad thing. Prices going up wouldn't surprise me but, at the same time, maybe stuff like their digital books will take a price dive so, you know, people will buy them...

....I was looking at a different country's prices by accident....

I'll just crawl into my hole now.

That being said, I am interested in seeing what happens to GW with this ownership change. I rarely buy things at GW prices anyway. I use ebay almost exclusively for my plastic crack.

[mechana2015]

What most interests me is Tom Kirby dropping on the list of top shareholders. I would dearly love to see someone that understands that GW makes models for a game for ages like...12 and up come into power. The fact you can't buy the starter boxes for fantasy and 40k and the Hobbit at like... Target and Toys R Us kinda blows my mind.

New ownership... I don't think the prices would go up. They might stay the same, but I think they'd be mad to try to push them higher that GW has already since, at least from personal experience, almost nobody buys their product at retail prices anyhow unless they have a massively good reason such as supporting a local game store or making enough money that the cost is immaterial. When a single 2k point army costs over 700 dollars, I'm not sure who REALLY can, at this point just buy a new army up front. I guess if you're making 60k a year that might not be that big a dent. I know if prices had been like this when I was thinking of starting I would have never even tried.

There are other games that I can get decent armies for around 150 or less, and I am genuinely, once I figure out if I need to patch any point holes in my Tau, going to focus on those cheaper games. For what I'd pay to have a new 40K army I'm fairly certain I could start 3-4 other games, and I actually hope to be able to have small armies for 4-5 games in one bag so I can just walk into a game store and be able to join in on whatever game is being being run.

Most anyone except, apparently, GW's current management understands that their product isn't selling to the same people that play golf or collect cars or uncut diamonds or some other outrageously expensive hobby. It seems like they suppose they're selling to single late 20 somethings with jobs in finance, but that doesn't describe a single person I've ever played a game with, and that probably is reflecting on their pretty much stagnant earnings the last few years. I think an across the board minimum of 5$ (around 2 Pound) cut in price could actually do loads for them in the US, bringing things like the broadside down to 45, or even better to compete with Warmachine, 35. (Australia would need more like a minimum 20 dollar cut but... thats another topic really since we're all stateside).

[Yamamaya]

What most interests me is Tom Kirby dropping on the list of top shareholders. I would dearly love to see someone that understands that GW makes models for a game for ages like...12 and up come into power. The fact you can't buy the starter boxes for fantasy and 40k and the Hobbit at like... Target and Toys R Us kinda blows my mind.

The funny thing about this is I have seen Warhammer 40K paperback books being sold at Meijer. They certainly could market it to a slightly younger audience, although I feel the rather dark fluff might cause some issues with the marketing. It is a niche hobby, but I could see it being sold well at regular retail stores. Of course this would require GW to change their business model and reduce prices, which hopefully they will do some day.

Most anyone except, apparently, GW's current management understands that their product isn't selling to the same people that play golf or collect cars or uncut diamonds or some other outrageously expensive hobby. It seems like they suppose they're selling to single late 20 somethings with jobs in finance, but that doesn't describe a single person I've ever played a game with, and that probably is reflecting on their pretty much stagnant earnings the last few years. I think an across the board minimum of 5$ (around 2 Pound) cut in price could actually do loads for them in the US, bringing things like the broadside down to 45, or even better to compete with Warmachine, 35. (Australia would need more like a minimum 20 dollar cut but... thats another topic really since we're all stateside).

It seems like the people they are aiming at are young people who still live at home and have minimal expenses. The people who do play Warhammer don't tend to be in the upper income bracket. For most people I've talked to about Warhammer, as soon as they saw how expensive even basic troops were, they were immediately turned off. GW seems to be counting on an increasingly shrinking audience of dedicated gamers to continue to be profitable.

[Peanut]

What most interests me is Tom Kirby dropping on the list of top shareholders. I would dearly love to see someone that understands that GW makes models for a game for ages like...12 and up come into power. The fact you can't buy the starter boxes for fantasy and 40k and the Hobbit at like... Target and Toys R Us kinda blows my mind.

This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of. Its not even like it would necessarily be all that out of place either since the D&D red box is advertised as being available at Walmart and Target (though neither of those retailers near me carry it).

New ownership... I don't think the prices would go up. They might stay the same, but I think they'd be mad to try to push them higher that GW has already since, at least from personal experience, almost nobody buys their product at retail prices anyhow unless they have a massively good reason such as supporting a local game store or making enough money that the cost is immaterial. When a single 2k point army costs over 700 dollars, I'm not sure who REALLY can, at this point just buy a new army up front. I guess if you're making 60k a year that might not be that big a dent. I know if prices had been like this when I was thinking of starting I would have never even tried.

There are other games that I can get decent armies for around 150 or less, and I am genuinely, once I figure out if I need to patch any point holes in my Tau, going to focus on those cheaper games. For what I'd pay to have a new 40K army I'm fairly certain I could start 3-4 other games, and I actually hope to be able to have small armies for 4-5 games in one bag so I can just walk into a game store and be able to join in on whatever game is being being run.

Most anyone except, apparently, GW's current management understands that their product isn't selling to the same people that play golf or collect cars or uncut diamonds or some other outrageously expensive hobby. It seems like they suppose they're selling to single late 20 somethings with jobs in finance, but that doesn't describe a single person I've ever played a game with, and that probably is reflecting on their pretty much stagnant earnings the last few years. I think an across the board minimum of 5$ (around 2 Pound) cut in price could actually do loads for them in the US, bringing things like the broadside down to 45, or even better to compete with Warmachine, 35. (Australia would need more like a minimum 20 dollar cut but... thats another topic really since we're all stateside).

The bigger thing to me would be dropping codex prices. Its been said that you give away razors so you can sell the blades and I don't really understand why GW hasn't realized they could do the same with their codex's. I'd think that the goal of their company would be to sell their models and easier accessibility to the codex's would make this possible. Either drop the price of the digital versions or make up a simpler version of each one that doesn't contain the art, hard back, and most of the lore but does contain the stats and basic rules, set the price at like $15-20 and you'd probably increase model sales by quite a bit since more people would be likely to pick up the latest codex's to learn about the new armies. I mentioned this once I think but I almost picked up a Chaos Demons codex on a whim when it was intially released because I was curious about the army. What stopped me was the $50 price tag on every version of the book available. If there had been like a $15 or $20 version, I probably would have given in and purchased it simply because I was curious. And if I had bought it, I might have even given that army a chance by purchasing a battle chest or something. They literally lost a sale their because of the price of something that could be way cheaper.

It seems like the people they are aiming at are young people who still live at home and have minimal expenses. The people who do play Warhammer don't tend to be in the upper income bracket. For most people I've talked to about Warhammer, as soon as they saw how expensive even basic troops were, they were immediately turned off. GW seems to be counting on an increasingly shrinking audience of dedicated gamers to continue to be profitable.

I've heard that 40k is pretty big with people in the military or ex military as well. Or at least that's the impression people who live near army bases have...

[mechana2015]

This is an interesting point I hadn't thought of. Its not even like it would necessarily be all that out of place either since the D&D red box is advertised as being available at Walmart and Target (though neither of those retailers near me carry it).

What's even more bizarre is that things like Dreadfleet, a one off board game, don't make it into the major retailers. You'd think those would be the BEST markets for that, not the already stretched gamers at game stores who are trying to maintain several armies. It also would make a better gift since it's a complete game, as opposed to the 40K starter box which needs you to buy a whole separate pair of books to use it with any other purchase.

The bigger thing to me would be dropping codex prices. Its been said that you give away razors so you can sell the blades and I don't really understand why GW hasn't realized they could do the same with their codex's. I'd think that the goal of their company would be to sell their models and easier accessibility to the codex's would make this possible. Either drop the price of the digital versions or make up a simpler version of each one that doesn't contain the art, hard back, and most of the lore but does contain the stats and basic rules, set the price at like $15-20 and you'd probably increase model sales by quite a bit since more people would be likely to pick up the latest codex's to learn about the new armies. I mentioned this once I think but I almost picked up a Chaos Demons codex on a whim when it was initially released because I was curious about the army. What stopped me was the $50 price tag on every version of the book available. If there had been like a $15 or $20 version, I probably would have given in and purchased it simply because I was curious. And if I had bought it, I might have even given that army a chance by purchasing a battle chest or something. They literally lost a sale their because of the price of something that could be way cheaper.

This is right on the money, and I'd say even moreso that the rule books are so insanely expensive. For 40K your only choice for a books are a 75 dollar option or a 99 dollar option in a store. After that there's just ebay or consignment of the mini rulebook, for around 25 bucks usually, but thats messing with chance and the vagaries of online purchasing, and requires you to know what you're buying already, or splitting the starter box with someone, and fighting over the rulebook (which is annoying as heck when you don't play either army in the starter). Games Workshop is the only mini company I know of that doesn't have a version of their rules (quick start at least) on their website. Heck, Corvus Belli actually has the ENTIRE 59 page Infinity rule book up on their website as a download last I checked, and host an army construction program on their site that has the full stats of nearly every unit in it. Warmachine's core rule book is actually cheaper than the army books by a good 5 dollars and cheaper than Death from the Skies! (and the army books are unnecessary in Warmachine, until you want to do some really specific things)

And don't get me started on the 85 dollar hobbit book which is required to make the most of the Goblin town box.

It seems like the people they are aiming at are young people who still live at home and have minimal expenses. The people who do play Warhammer don't tend to be in the upper income bracket. For most people I've talked to about Warhammer, as soon as they saw how expensive even basic troops were, they were immediately turned off. GW seems to be counting on an increasingly shrinking audience of dedicated gamers to continue to be profitable.

I've heard that 40k is pretty big with people in the military or ex military as well. Or at least that's the impression people who live near army bases have...

I've seen and heard the military thing as well, but knowing some military people I wonder how far those people can stretch as well. My friends in or recently out of the military are most definitely not wealthy. I've talked this over with several people and it seems like the most common response when people are interested in 40K is to talk the price over with them, and if they're horrified at the cost, then show them Malafaux (35-40 dollar starter sets that barely ever need to be scaled up, and some which actually need to be scaled DOWN for low points matches) or Warmachine/Hordes (50 dollar starter sets, 1 for every faction, even points across the board).

Edit: Would anyone be interested in seeing what I mean by saying I can have 3 armies in any other game for the price of one 40K army?

The funny thing about this is I have seen Warhammer 40K paperback books being sold at Meijer. They certainly could market it to a slightly younger audience, although I feel the rather dark fluff might cause some issues with the marketing. It is a niche hobby, but I could see it being sold well at regular retail stores. Of course this would require GW to change their business model and reduce prices, which hopefully they will do some day.

Black Library is run by it's own group of managers and staff and they seem to know quite well how to handle their market, judging by the fact that Barnes and Nobel has a massive WALL of their product in the sci fi section that rivals more mainstream series like star wars and trek for quantity (and the quality isn't awful either).
Edit: Though apparently they've started to pull similar shenanigans with exclusive limited releases on their books though so that could start going downhill in a hot hurry as well.

[Peanut]

I have to wonder if GW is owned by wealthy old men who have no concept of what the internet is or how it could aid in selling more of their product outside of just having a website with a store on it.

[mechana2015]

http://dnd-realm.simplygaming.org/t34-t ... all-of-tsr this is an eerily familiar sounding series of events in some ways.

I think you're exactly right with the comments about the owners. I think one of the best questions a person could ask Tom Kirby (or any of the other people that aren't working in game design or model design) is: have you ever and do you currently play the games you are responsible for selling and managing? Do you use your product?

Privateer Press (major GW competitor) regularly features army showcases from their staff and hosts in house tourneys from time to time. We've seen guys from sales, gals from the graphic design team, their video production manager, head writer, convention coordinators... it seems at least on a surface level that everyone in the company has had their hand in playing the game to some degree. The founder of the company even gets in games from time to time.

[Crossfire]

I've heard that 40k is pretty big with people in the military or ex military as well. Or at least that's the impression people who live near army bases have...

I can attest to that. Well, to some extent... I don't know how popular it is nowadays, after all these price-hiking shenanigans. However, there was one guy who stared building a Space Marine force last summer... despite the absence of a hobby store/gaming club within a hundred klicks of the base. *shrug*

[Yamamaya]

This is right on the money, and I'd say even moreso that the rule books are so insanely expensive. For 40K your only choice for a books are a 75 dollar option or a 99 dollar option in a store. After that there's just ebay or consignment of the mini rulebook, for around 25 bucks usually, but thats messing with chance and the vagaries of online purchasing, and requires you to know what you're buying already, or splitting the starter box with someone, and fighting over the rulebook (which is annoying as heck when you don't play either army in the starter). Games Workshop is the only mini company I know of that doesn't have a version of their rules (quick start at least) on their website. Heck, Corvus Belli actually has the ENTIRE 59 page Infinity rule book up on their website as a download last I checked, and host an army construction program on their site that has the full stats of nearly every unit in it. Warmachine's core rule book is actually cheaper than the army books by a good 5 dollars and cheaper than Death from the Skies! (and the army books are unnecessary in Warmachine, until you want to do some really specific things)

Yeah, I was thinking of looking into Chaos Space Marines and Warriors of Chaos, but once their new expensive books came out, I didn't purchase them. I would be more inclined to have more codices if GW made them significantly cheaper. Warhammer Fantasy and 40K both have a very high entry cost. If you don't do your research first via forums and tactical videos, its very easy to wind up with an army that plays very differently than how you want to play. Now, even if you are interested in an army you have to drop around 40-50 bucks just for the book. It's hard not to justify making the army after you already spent that much money getting the codex.

Warhammer seems to be run around a one army business model. People will buy one army, and once they finish it, they will have little incentive to purchase more models. So codex updates and new models are used to try to get them to purchase more. Power creep among codices and White Dwarf marketing is used to try to entice Warhammer players to new armies. I remember GW's LOTR line was run under more of a collection marketing strategy than a one army strategy, since with LOTR you wanted lots of different models from different factions to make cool scenarios.

I always found it ludicrous just how expensive the start up cost is for Warhammer. With the new hardcover books, it's 125 dollars just to have the rulebook and one codex. They could get a lot more players if the rules were made available for free as a pdf download.

[mechana2015]

Oh and good luck if you want to run allies. 100 dollars in codexes minimum. 150 if you're like me and were thinking about having 2 different allies to trade back and forth.

[Peanut]

So, to be honest, I've not given my Necrons or Grey Knights a serious look since 6th edition has come out. However, today, I got to thinking about using them together in a list. Here is my first attempt:

HQ
Trazyn-Command Barge with Guass Cannon

Elites
Triarch Stalker-Twin Linked Heavy Guass Cannon
Triarch Stalker-Twin LInked Heavy Gauss Cannon

Troops
15 Necron Warriors
15 Necron Warriors
15 Necron Warriors

Heavy Support
Canoptek Spyder-Fabricator Claw Array

Allies
Draigo

5 Paladins-Force Falcions

Venerable Dreadnaught-2 Twin Linked Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

So, this is a torrent of fire list with Draigo and his Paladins playing the roll of a solid counterattack unit. I've got 50 Gauss shots in the list, the majority of which are strength 4 which should be ok at dealing with infantry, as well as 12 bolter shots and 4 Autocannon shots for a wopping 66 shots in the list. The stalkers and Dreadnaught are my long range shooting and at Strength 9/8 they shouldn't have much of an issue shooting things down. The Spyder is there to help with counter attacking and to repair my stalkers (I don't think he can repair the Dreadnaught unfortunately). Trazyn is there to play as warlord and grab objectives. I am debating dropping the Dreadnaught and adding another Triarch Stalker since its cheaper and gives me another strength 9 shot or dropping some models to add in Wraiths/Tomb Blades. Thoughts would be appreciated.

[mechana2015]

Good news, the paladins are also a scoring unit in that list so that's a nice to have as well. Since you treat allies of convenience as non-targetable enemies, repair is right out in this list for the Dread, and I'm not sure how else that might influence this list. The spare stalker rather than dread in game could be nice instead for that reason alone though, and a fast attack could be useful to contest some of the further flung areas early on.

[Peanut]

The one advantage to the dread is I get 4 strength 8 shots at BS 5. The Heavy Gauss on the Stalkers is only 1 shot. However, something I forgot about the Stalker, is its ability to give twinlink to units around it if it hits the target its shooting at. So, the Stalkers can tag targets for my Warriors to gun down, the Venerable cannot. But still...4 strength 8 shots at a BS of 5 with a range of 48 is nice...

[mechana2015]

Rng 48 BS 5 Twin Linked equivalent to a heavy rail rifle (depending on what psybolt AP is) and 4 shots is pretty great. Thats more shots than a squad of 3 broadsides will put out. Especially good for knocking out Terminator Equivelants and light armor. I'd say that's worth having over a third stalker, at least for an allies list, since the dread can engage a target on it's own and inflict significant damage (having to roll ones 2x in a row to miss at all on any given shot), and the remaining two stalkers can impart the reroll to the rest of the army on 2 other targets allowing 3 engagements in a single turn with good odds for a lot of damage being dealt. Sounds good to me, though rather unpleasant to be on the recieving end... I'd be really hoping for first turn to see if I could get rid of the 2 Stalkers and the dread (or at least their weapons) before you got to use them.

[Peanut]

The great thing about the list is that while those dish out good damage, they aren't the core, the Warriors are. So if they get knocked out early on its not game over. Plus the Fabricator Claws let you repair one Weapon Destroyed or Hull Point or Immobilized result, so it adds durability to the Stalkers which have 3 hull points and 11 armor on all sides+Quantum shielding which makes it AV13 until a penetration roll is rolled...so yeah more durable then even I thought.

Edit: Actually the more I think about this the sicker I think this could be simply because those things just won't die. I'll probably test play it on a smaller scale before I make a decision but I think if I could do 3 Stalkers and squeeze one more Spyder in, I'd have a pretty tough set of shooting to deal with that makes the rest of my army more deadly.

[mechana2015]

Allright, I haven't finished my look through of the book yet, but I have made a 2000 (or 1999+1) list out of what I've currently got on hand, which makes me happy since I can buy models at leisure now rather than feeling like I have to get new stuff to be able to play up to the 2000 points level. This is semi all comers, and just mostly to see what I could get for the points with what I own.

HQ
Shadowsun -Commandlink Drone, 2x MV52 Shield Drones

XV8 Commander- Missile Pod, CIB, Velocity Tracker, Shield, Puretide E-Chip

-Bodyguard- Plasma Rifle, Flamer, Shield, Neuroweb Jammer

Elite
Crisis Team
-XV8 Shas'vre- TL Missile Pods, Early Warning, Bonding Knife
-XV8 Shas'Ui- Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Early Warning, Bonding Knife

Stealth Team 1
-Stealth Shas'Vre - Markerlight, Target Lock
-5 Stealth Suits

Stealth Team 2
-Stealth Shas'Vre - Markerlight, Target Lock
-4 Stealth Suits, 1 Fusion Blaster

Troops
12x Firewarriors, Shas'Ui, Bonding Knives
12x Firewarriors, Shas'Ui, Bonding Knives
10x Firewarriors, Shas'Ui, Bonding Knives, EMP Grenades
12x Kroot, Sniper Rounds, Shaper with Pulse Rifle

Fast Attack
5x Pathfinders, 3 Rail Rifles, Shas'Ui
-Devilfish DT with SMS, Disruption Pods and Blacksun Filter

Piranha with Fusion Blaster, Disruption Pods and Blacksun Filter

Heavy Support
Broadside Team- early Warning

Broadside Team, Early Warning

Hammerhead with Railgun, Submunitions, SMS, Disruption Pod, Blacksun and Point Defense

Not exactly focused, but I think it could give some people a run for their money. It'll turn out a max of 186 rounds and 4 Markerlight shots if every unit is in optimum firing range (all rapid fire gets rapid fire), most of that at 5/5.

I should see what kind of max fire volume I can turn out in a list sometime.

[Peanut]

That sounds nasty and looks nasty. One thing to keep in mind is that some players may focus down your markerlights first. I'm not sure how reliant you are on the Markerlights in this list since my knowledge of the Tau book is limited to what I've heard on a 40k podcast, so that's something to just keep in mind and plan around. The amount of shooting you are putting out should be enough to deal with most infantry lists just because of the number of shots. Its a pretty good list though.

[mechana2015]

Scary enough, this is my 4th/5th ed 2250 list without drones, almost verbatim aside from wargear adjustments, since the 2 most common pieces of wargear tau had are now not purchasable (multitrackers are built in, targeting arrays are gone). I barely ever used markerlights, and I'm still trying to decide on their value now, especially over just pure volume of fire and twinlinked stuff. It does make me happy though since this means I don't [i]have[i/] to buy anything new just to keep my points level up, and I could actually push this list up to 2250 easily, just by giving all the stealth suits an invul save (armor overkill I know), though I probably will expand it sometime. Get a skyray and a second pathfinder squad.

The interesting thing is that etherials and cadre fireblades could make that fire rate number much higher... up to doubling the fire rate of one of the firewarrior squads O.o. 52 shots out of one squad is disgusting.

[Peanut]

What strength are the shots?

[mechana2015]

5AP5 like most of the army. We still can't really cover the board in high power firepower thanks to the day 3 errata they posted. If it hadn't been altered, we could have had missile drones (7AP4 Heavy 2) in every unit that could take a drone.

[Peanut]

5AP5 like most of the army. We still can't really cover the board in high power firepower thanks to the day 3 errata they posted. If it hadn't been altered, we could have had missile drones (7AP4 Heavy 2) in every unit that could take a drone.

With the way things are, that's probably is considered high fire power. The addition of Hull Points has made Vehicles a bit more fragile so people seem to be taking more infantry these days. That many strength 5 shots should be pretty good against most infantry armies. If you can hit things that are armor 11 you can also glance vehicles like Rhinos to death thanks to the new rules. That's a pretty scary list. I know I wouldn't want to face it.

[Peanut]

So, I got the Dark Vengeance set earlier this week because I wanted the smaller rule book and I decided today to run a quick test game with the two armies in their as well as my Tyranids and Necrons. The lists looked something like this:

DA
Company Master-Power Sword, Combi-Plasma
LIbrarian
10 DA Tactical Marines-Veteran Sergent (chainsword and plasma pistol), Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun
3 Ravenwing Bikers- Sergent (chainsword), Plasma Gun

CSM
Chaos Lord-Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
Helbrute-Multi-Melta, Powerfist
5 Chosen- Champion (Power Maul), Lighting Claws, Power Axe, Power Fist
10 Cultist-Champion, Flamer
10 Cultist- Champion (shotgun), Heavy Stubber, 8 Autoguns


Necrons
Trazyn-Command Barge
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
3 Tomb Blades-Particle Casters, Nebuloscope

Tyranids
Tervigon-3 Psychic Powers, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
10 Termagants
3 Warriors- Deathspitters
3 Raveners-Rending Claws, Spine Fists

Some observations from the game:
-Holy moly Tomb Blades with Particle Casters and Nebuloscopes are good. A ballistic skill of 5 mixed with 1 str6 ap5 blast template per model is absolutely crazy good. These guys literally took down squads of Cultists and Gaunts by themselves. I'm going to try and make room for 5 in my list now with this set up. I don't think I need the other upgrades since toughness 5 makes them durable enough to make their points back.

-The Tervigon was the other star though that isn't surprising. There probably should be a ban on Tervigons in any games at less then 1000 points because they are that good. I managed to spawn three squads of gaunts before it blew out so, needless to say, the Tyranids ended up with way more points-worth of models on the board then they should have had I did learn that Enfeeble is hilariously good even when you only have one model that can use it. Dropping Marines to toughness 3 and then shooting at them with strength 4 and strength 5 guns was surprisingly effective at eliminating them from the game.

-The 3 man Ravener squad did very well but some of that was because it ended up assaulting both Necron Warrior squads and...yeah that went the way you would think it would. One thing to note is that the Spinefists were horribly ineffective but I think I could actually make them work. Originally I took them because I wanted my Raveners to essentially be Hydralisk rip offs (or the inspiration for Hydralisks) and 4 twin-linked shots a model isn't too bad (even if its strength 3). I figured I could ignore them if I wanted to play seriously with my Raveners. However, given how Enfeeble worked in tandem with the rest of my shooting, I'm beginning to think that they could fit in really well. A couple of Enfeebles can drop a marine to toughness 2 which would mean they would wound on 3s and at 4 twin-linked shots per model, that could do a ton to help soften a squad up for an assault.

-I need to do another test with Trazyn in a group of Lychgaurd or something, but right now I'm liking him in a Command Barge. The fact that its a chariot and can make a D6 Strength 6 Hammer of Wrath attacks every time I roll into an assault is pretty good and Armor 13 until a penetration roll is made makes him decently durable. I'm thinking Tesla is better then Gauss for shooting simply because you can get more shots. I like the mobility it gives him to contest late in the game as well but I still wonder if Lychgaurd with a Veil of Darkness would be just as good if not better. I'll have to try it out and see.

-Based off of how the 5 man warrior squads did, I think as long as I can get in range, my mass fire list will be pretty good. I may drop Draigo and the Paladins in favor of a Librarian and some normal Grey Knights simply because of points (or I could pick up Coteaz and some henchmen...I'm not really sure what I should do right now). I was playing on a small table so everything was in Rapid Fire range for a good chunk of the game which is why they performed the way they did but still, it was enough to prove that my idea isn't a bad one.

-The Tyranid Warriors did well as well. I think you could make them work in a list if you had enough threats on the board to make people ignore them entirely.

-This probably had to do with the size and type of squads in the game, but Overwatch did literally nothing the entire game. I know that with enough shots and special rules this can and would change but, for the most part, it didn't bother me at all.

-Speaking of things that did nothing the entire game, the Warlord traits (at least the Rulebook ones) are probably the most useless thing added into 40k so far. Only Trazyn ended up with one that was useful (he got the ability to allow any squad within 12" of him to reroll 1s in shooting). The rest got really lousy ones that didn't effect the game at all. Kind of dissappointing.

-You may have noticed I haven't mentioned anything about Dark Angels or CSM yet. Well, that's because I really wasn't impressed with either of them at all. I know this is mostly because they are starter kit models facing models that have been built to be as effective as possible but I thought that at least some of them would have been able to do something remotely interesting. The only one that really performed well was the Hellbrute and that was because I wasn't playing with its Crazed rules because I couldn't find them explained in detail online. It still managed to kill off most of the Biker Squad and put three wounds on the Tervigon in hand to hand combat. The Dark Angel Librarian was kind of in a similar boat since I didn't know how many psychic powers it gets (I assumed 1) except it did nothing in the game mostly because of stupidity on my part (I left it out on its own...to be crushed by the Hellbrute). The Cultists don't impress me. I'd rather have Termagants with their lack of a good heavy support weapon but better anti-infantry fire and biomorphs that help in assault then take Cultists who have the same stat line and worse guns outside of the flamer or stub gun they can take. The marks probably help make them better but I'm not sure if they are as good as a Tervigon being within the general vicinity of Termagants. The Choosen really didn't get the chance to shine and neither did the Lord. On the DA side, the Ravenwing bikers were dead before I could do anything with them and the Tactical Marines were largely ineffective once Mr.Tervigon started to Enfeeble them. Their Company MAster did survive a while in combat so that's a thing. I didn't bring out the Deathwing Termanators because they made their list cost over 500 points so I have nothing to say about them. Overall though, I'd say neither list was particularly impressive though i do love the models in that set.

Edit: So I'm not going to triple post but I do want to mention something else that has gotten me thinking with Grey Knights and Necrons. I'm leaning towards no wraiths, more dakka and more Tomb Blades for my Necrons and I've come across something in the GK codex that might serve better for my assault/counter-assault units. In fact, it might serve wayyyyyy better. So, in the GK dex, there is a unit called the Death Cult Assassin. This is a part of the inquisitorial warband which can be taken when you take an Inquistor as an HQ or as troops when you have Coteaz as your HQ. Death Cult Assassins have a WS of 5, strength of 4, initiative 6, 2 attacks, a 5++ save and are equipped with 2 power weapons (I'll get back to this later). In 5th edition, they were the best assault unit in the game thanks to the combo of Hammerhand (which raises their strength by 1) and Rad Grenades (which lowers the enemies toughness by 1). They are still very good in 6th edition but with the nerf on assault, aren't as nearly as over powered as they were in 5th...or so I thought. You see, there is something with the wording that is a bit weird with them. The models they have have power swords, which made me assume that when it says power weapon it meant power sword. However, I have heard numerous places that it simply means any power weapon. I'm not sure if this is the case but I can't find anything that really confirms or denies it (closest thing is in the Space Marine FAQ where it says change all entries that say "Power Sword" to "Power Weapon" but that doesn't really help things). So, theoretically, you could have something like 2 Power Mauls (which raise your strength by 2). I'm going to assume here for a second that Power Maul's bonuses don't stack because that would be silly if they do. If you can give Cultists Power Mauls, then theoretically you could have a unit with 4 attacks striking at str 6 at initiative 6 which, with rad grenades, would be instant death against any terminators or other multi-wound toughness 4 units. And that would be nasty...unfortunately there is nothing that says you can do this so...yeah...probably won't. I'm still considering Death Cultists for my list though.

[Peanut]

I know I said I wasn't going to triple post in this thread but yesterday I played a small game of 40k against my friend at about 500 points. I was playing Tyranids with a list that was something like this:

Tervigon: Toxin Sacs, 3 Psychic Powers
2 Zoanthorpes
10 Termagants
5 Genestealers: 1 Broodlord

He just used the Chaos from the Dark Vengence set. I don't have any pictures but we played a pretty close game and, as usual, I learned somethings.

-My goal in taking this list was to simulate running a psyker heavy list for when I get to 2000 points. Unfortunately, I didn't get the powers I wanted...I don't think this will be a big issue with the list I want to run since it has so many psychic powers but it was a little bit frustrating to not end up with any of what I was hoping to end up with.

-Never spawn gaunts on your first turn with a Tervigon...rolling doubles then sucks.

-I think Genestealers are still usable. It really depends on what psychic powers you can cast on them to give support and I think you have to take a Broodlord. They are great when you get into an assault the problem is actually getting their. When I play a larger game I may run a 16 man brood with a Broodlord to see how they run. The Broodlord, by the way, was clutch and pretty much won me the game.

-I walked away trading my have of DV for his half of DV so I now have a good start on a Dark Angels army...no clue what I'm going to do with it yet.

[mechana2015]

Sounds like a pretty good trade at least... though it think he got the better with 2 maulerfiends and the massive horde of cultists.

Also I'd say don't be down on the tervigon rolling doubles turn one... it's not that common. I think its better to risk it to have the extra mob of tervis on the board.

[Peanut]

Eh, I just kind of think of this time as being the universe balancing itself for every other time when I end up having 3-4 straight turns of spawning 10+ gaunts. As far as our trade goes, the Helbrutes and Chosen were the real prizes for him but then again I got another 5 Deathwing Terminators and another 3 Ravenwing bikes so, I think it balances out in the end. I'm still not impressed with plain Cultists. I would much rather have something closer to Gaunts or Inquisitorial Henchmen. To compare, without upgrades they are 1 point less then a Termangaunt but the Termagunt is better at shooting (Assault 1 Strength 4 weapon verses a strength 3 pistol) and really aren't that much better then Termagaunts in assault. Add in a Tervigon support and Termagaunts become way better then Cultists in assault. Cultists can take a special weapon but I don't think that really makes up for it when compared to Termagaunts. If you add in upgrades, I think Gaunts distance themselves even more since a sqaud of 10 with Devourers can outshoot a similar squad of cultists. Granted they cost way more then said cultists at that point, but you're getting a squad that shoots 30 strength 4 shots that force morale checks every time they cause a casualty. I just don't think cultists really compare besides being cheap cannon fodder.

[mechana2015]

Ahhh I just meant getting them for cheap monetarily. Cultists are 10 dollars for 5, no special weapons. If you can pull the trade off like your buddy did you're getting your cheap cannon fodder, 40+ dollars worth of it with special weapons, for considerably less than that considering all the other models... heck, helbrutes are like deffkoptas now, only in the starter box. That'd probably be 50 alone if it was separate.

Addendum: Ah and I see chosen are in the same boat as the helbrute. Seriously GW?

[Peanut]

Yep. And its terrible because they are all really good models too.

[Peanut]

I'm playing another game against my friend on Thursday and I'm debating on two lists to take. I do not know what army my friend is going to use nor how large the table is we will be playing on (last time it was a small card table) which is why I'm debating between these two lists. Besides his Chaos Space Marines, he also has a Dark Eldar list and he also surprised me by mentioning that he's bought the models for a Missle Spam Space Marine list full of drop pods and all sorts of other nasty surprises. The first one is close to the Necrons list I'm building to and looks like this:

Trazyn-Command Barge with Gauss Cannon
Triarch Stalker-Twin-Linked Heavy Gauss Cannon
12 Warriors
12 Warriors
5 Immortals
3 Tomb Blades-Particle Beamers; Nebuloscopes; Shield Vanes; Shadowloom

I did another test game and found it to be a hilariously powerful shooting list. I was worried about the lack of assault units in my list but, as it turns out, I don't think I'm going to need them. In testing, one of my Warrior Squads held a Trygon Prime in combat for 3 Assault phases thanks to the magic that is Reanimation protocols. I was having about 2 Warriors stand up after each Assault phase effectively preventing said Trygon from rampaging through the rest of my army. The Tomb Blades continue to be trolltastic stars which makes me wonder why people would pick Wraiths over them. Triarch Stalker performed ok until a couple of Hive Guard completely destroyed it but that isn't enough to deter me from using it since Hive Guard do that to a lot of things. I had Tesla on the Barge for the test game but really didn't find it to be that impressive. Since my friend has mostly marines, I think strength 5 AP3 is a better way to go. I think this list is better suited for each army my friend can put on the table but would have issues killing Plauge Marines which could be problematic if he decides to bring them.

I tested to other Nid lists in the same game, one being massively favored towards assaulting and the other being more balanced with a couple of Monstrous Creatures to tear it up in assault. The Assaulty lists surprsingly won my test game but I think that had more to do with the size of the table and having 3 armies around then its actual capabilities. So, I took the basic concepts of those two lists and combined them together to make this list:

Swarmlord
Tyranid Prime-Dual Boneswords; Scything Talons; Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; Regen
10 Genestealers-Broodlord (Scything Talons); Toxin Sacs
15 Termagants-Devourers
Tervigon-Scything Talons; Adrenal Glands; Toxin Sacs; 3 Psychic Powers

I was debating on including a Trygon over the Genestealers but ultimately decided against it because a Genestealer brood with Broodlord adds 2 more Psychic powers, are more likely to draw fire then the Trygon (besides his Dark Eldar, my friend doesn't really have anything that can deal with T6 W6 Monstrous Creatures), and are better in assault then the Trygon. Tyranid Prime will join the Genestealers. The Swarmlord is running solo because of points. I'm not too worried about his survivability since he has 5 wounds and I'll be rolling for book powers with all of my psykers which should give me something to make him even more survivable. Termagants are there to throw 45 Strength 4 shots at any infantry silly enough to get in range. While I think the Necron list is better overall, its only because this list would get rofl stomped by his Dark Eldar. Posion shooting would make pretty short work of my Monstrous Creatures and I don't have anything that can keep up with the speed of that army. Other then that, I don't think there is anything that he can put on the table that this list couldn't deal with rather easily.

[mechana2015]

I say take the necrons.