Immaturity disguised as maturity

[rocklobster]

There is one reason I consider Japanese animation to be superior to our own. And that is how the material in both is handled. To me, not only is most of our animation geared towards children (not necessarily a bad thing), but it's also childish. Even the so-called "adult" cartoons seem this way to me. Just because you insert crude jokes and other such material that is inappropriate for children does not mean your program is adult. To me, it is also how the story is depicted. Anime also has adult material in it as well, but handles it in a much more mature way. This is why I like anime more. It doesn't shy away from showing us things children "should not see" and is not always geared towards children. To me, stuff like Family Guy and Simpsons is not adult. I call it "immaturity disguised as maturity[/i]. I think stuff like Now and Then, Grave of the Fireflies, and others like them, are far more adult than anything we create for adult audiences because they handle such sensitive topics as death, war, and rape in a mature fashion without attempting to shield children.
Am I the only one who feels this way?
Note to mods: I put this in the general section because I felt that we shouldn't limit the discussion to just anime. Lots of children's entertainment in America suffers from this.

[armeck]

i agree with this 100% there are other areas where this applies too.

[Hiryu]

I don't think Family Guy or Simpsons were meant to be "adult" shows. They're comedy shows used to cater to a variety of people. Unfortunately this can mean some childish jokes.

[Nate]

To me, not only is most of our animation geared towards children (not necessarily a bad thing), but it's also childish.

Yeah, I agree completely. The problem is tha-

Anime also has adult material in it as well, but handles it in a much more mature way.

Oh sorry, thought this was a serious thread. Never mind!

[ChristianKitsune]

I dunno. This seems like a problem that is a world-wide thing. And it's not limited to animation or anything. And honestly, Japan is no perfect little angel either. Some of their stuff is highly immature and its even on shows that are geared for children. Fanservice anyone?

But I do agree with you on some points, Rock.

[Xeno]

I don't think Family Guy or Simpsons were meant to be "adult" shows. They're comedy shows used to cater to a variety of people. Unfortunately this can mean some childish jokes.

This. I enjoy shows like Family Guy and Archer because they're comedy, not because they're animation. As far as other types of shows go there are a lot of them out there that are horribly immature but have "adult content" such as the various scripted "reality" shows.

I only watch a few select shows, and they aren't really geared towards an age range so much as they are specific types of shows. Yes, Justified has a mature rating, but it's not because it's made to try to attract everyone over 18, it's written for people who like the kind of story it tells. Shows like Chuck, Eureka, Suits, Psych, The Walking Dead, The Killing, etc. are all made for specific audiences, not for age groups.

[FllMtl Novelist]

The animation in America, as far as I can tell, is either a) funny cartoons that may be for adults or children, or b) action-y stuff for kids. Adults don't generally take animation seriously. So when there are cartoons for adults, they're for the lulz. Kids, on the other hand, are more willing to accept the unlikely or 'ridiculous', and so can take non-comedic cartoons perfectly seriously.

But in Japan, it seems animation is as valid a storytelling medium as books or live-action is in America. That's why there are more mature things handled appropriately in anime: some of it is geared towards a mature audience that's willing to take it seriously.

I really don't see one as superior to the other, since American and Japanese animation are each used to accomplish different things, with mixed results in both. Japan has obvious fanservice, and America has obnoxious fart or sex jokes. America has MLP: Friendship is Magic and Young Justice; Japan has Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and Ouran HSHC.

That's my two cents, based on my observations.

[Cognitive Gear]

I really can't agree with this. For one, some of the shows you think are immature, like The Simpsons and South Park, are satirical/parody/social commentary. They tend to have more meaning to them than just the shock humor. Especially if we're comparing them to an industry that created shows like Excel Saga and Grenadier.

Basically, it depends on where you look. Every industry/medium is going to have some immaturity and some maturity in it, you just have to be open to it.

[Wolf-man]

Yeah because the Japanese never have immature shows or anything. All those shows dedicated to ecchi or hentai for ecchi or hentai's sake...yeah those are totally mature.
I'm not saying that American "adult" animation is superior at all. In fact I agree with you, that a good portion of it (the shows at least) are immature and seem like they were written by Junior Highers. I am just saying that we shouldn't act like Japan is so much better because anime has more mature shows for adults. They also have a huge amount of immature shows just like America. America has plenty of animation for adults that is mature. Just look at The DC Animated movies or pretty much any of those animated movies, or shows for that matter (most of them, anyway), based on comic books and you will see that Americans do not just make animated "adult" shows that are full of crass or sexual humor.

[rocklobster]

I was really excluding the hentai and such. I was leaving room for exceptions. I really meant in general. I know about (and detest) stuff like FLCL. (hides and gets ready for onslaught of flames and how-dare-you-detest-FLCL filled responses)

[Cognitive Gear]

I was really excluding the hentai and such. I was leaving room for exceptions. I really meant in general. I know about (and detest) stuff like FLCL.

Even on this level, I really don't think it is true. (And I don't think it's fair to compare select Japanese works against select American/Western works if you are speaking in generalities)

What is true is that TV animation in (the US? The west? I'm not entirely sure which one you were going for) is more often geared towards children, and theatrical is more targeted at families.

I don't see this as a good or bad thing, really. It's just a thing that happens because that's where the money is.

EDIT: You know, there's one other thing I think is important to note: the "maturity" of something really doesn't matter. It doesn't ad to or take away from the quality of it, and if it did we wouldn't have nearly as many people in this community.

[Radical Dreamer]

I was really excluding the hentai and such. I was leaving room for exceptions. I really meant in general. I know about (and detest) stuff like FLCL. (hides and gets ready for onslaught of flames and how-dare-you-detest-FLCL filled responses)

I think this is why what you're saying overall doesn't work, though. There is a lot of anime out there, and you can't just pick and choose some of the best of it to represent what all anime is like, leaving exceptions for hentai and "such." That would be like me picking Lost, The Walking Dead, The Office, Chuck, Arrested Development, and Frasier and saying those shows represent the entirety of American television, with exceptions for things like Jersey Shore and such. That "such" represents a large percentage of American television that probably isn't quality, or is immature, or is badly written, or has bad production values, etc.

So to say that some really great anime shows represent the entirety of the medium as a whole is really not true, because there are a lot (a lot) of anime that don't handle things maturely, that don't have great stories to tell, that don't have good animation, that don't have good writing, or acting, et cetera et cetera. Entertainment varies so much in every culture, and you're bound to find both good and bad, both mature and immature. Japan doesn't have a patent on mature ways to handle adult television, but neither does America, England or France. I think it's best to just take the good shows as they come and appreciate them for what they are, without trying to slap a label on the culture as a whole. XD

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I stopped watching all anime because it's all just immature and filled with cliches. Sooo... What?

[Scarecrow]

Eh everyone has their problems. I don't really buy the whole immaturity/maturity thing. But I do like anime better than anything in america. Although I'm quite selective on my anime too... but at least Japan has a couple stuff I WILL watch while in America, there is absolutely nothing I'd bother watching. That I can think of anyway...

I can't stand family Guy, South Park, The Simpsons, Aqua Teen Hunger Force etc etc etc. The comedy in these just isn't my type. And the art is atrocious. Which is why I can't stand american action cartoons either like Batman the Animated Series etc. The art is crap. Although the new ThunderCats and stuff look good.

I hate the comedy and I hate the art... main reasons I like Japanese shows over American. Also I like stories that arch over a whole season rather than just a bunch of standalone episodes. But it's just personal preference I suppose... I don't like a lot of comedy period. It has to have a real dry sense of humor for me to enjoy it.

There have been some meh anime I watched just because I liked the art style and music. Prefer when there's a decent storyline to go with it though... If the story isn't at least half way interesting, then it's just beautiful junk.

But yeah, Anime has some GREAT stuff.. but this is a select few I've found. Very select. That is still more than I can say for american cartoons for the most part but I think it's unfair to judge a medium based on a few when the rest doesn't come close to being as good in terms and quality and can sit on the shelf along with Family Guy for all I care.

[Radical Dreamer]

And the art is atrocious. Which is why I can't stand american action cartoons either like Batman the Animated Series etc. The art is crap.

I wasn't going to say anything, and then I read this. XD There is just no hope for you if you think Batman TAS has crappy art. XD Batman TAS is brilliant, and the art is just fine, speaking as an illustrator who knows bad art when she sees it. XD Just because it isn't stylized to look like anime doesn't mean it's bad. I find that a lot of American cartoons are more creative with their illustrating and animating techniques than 90% of the anime I've seen. Variety is the spice of life. Just saying. XD

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Family Guy and South Park has some raunchy humor, but there is also a lot of intellectual and more subtle humor. And it makes sense, being that a lot of it is social commentary.

This is something I've almost never come across in an anime. (exception is Satoshi Kon and Naoki Urasawa). So I think the opposite could be true: Anime is more immature than Western animation is.

It all really depends on what your definition of "mature" is, I suppose.

[DaughterOfZion]

You have to remember though our cultures are almost polar opposites, so what's social commentary to us may not be to them and vice versa.

[Maledicte]

So...Under The Red Hood counts as immature?

[Nate]

It all really depends on what your definition of "mature" is, I suppose.

And that's the problem.

If you're going by content, so what? Crayon Shin-Chan and Excel Saga exist, and to somehow "not count" those is ludicrous. You wanna go by facing certain themes? What about Up or Wall-E? The first five minutes of Up is massively touching and emotional and mature, more so than stuff like Bleach or Naruto could ever be.

And again, as Ryan said, you could even go by political/social commentary, of which there is VERY little present in anime outside of a couple of series, whereas shows like that are extremely prevalent in the US. Whether you like or hate them, South Park, Simpsons, Family Guy, Boondocks...all these make very strong social and political statements. There's virtually no anime that is equivalent to these.

It's pointless, really, this whole thing.

[Yuki-Anne]

There are many American toons that, while marketed to a younger audience, have very large adult audiences. MLP and Avatar come to mind.

And also, speaking as someone who lives in Japan and has actually been a victim of the very immature view of sex and the female body that is really prevalent in this culture, I would advise you to be hesitant about holding that aspect of Japanese entertainment up as evidence of maturity. I think you'd be shocked at some of the stuff that's just out in the open for any wandering eye to see in book and dvd stores.

And personally, I think that in the West our live-action entertainment is, in some ways, far better than just about anything available in Japan. If you like Asian dramas, that's cool, but they don't have ANYTHING resembling or anywhere near as good as shows like House or Doctor Who.

In the wasteland of entertainment, every country has good shows and awful shows, and the awful shows usually outnumber the good shows by a landslide. The reason you're not thinking of Japan in these terms is probably because the best stuff is usually what makes it overseas.

[Stephen]

Family Guy and South Park has some raunchy humor, but there is also a lot of intellectual and more subtle humor. And it makes sense, being that a lot of it is social commentary.

This is something I've almost never come across in an anime. (exception is Satoshi Kon and Naoki Urasawa). So I think the opposite could be true: Anime is more immature than Western animation is.

It all really depends on what your definition of "mature" is, I suppose.

I just heard hell freeze from Maine. Ryan I agree with you.

[SolidÃ…rmor]

I remember having a discussion similar to this with a friend one time, and it was agreed on both parties present that: A) most of American animation is licensed overseas anyway, and is not really "American" (exception being Family Guy, American Dad and maybe Ben 10). B) 90% of the animated shows that are aired on US television is only done so to sell merchandise, so quality doesn't matter as long as it makes a company money.

However, Japanese animation could be based more on the lines of our Soap Operas...or more like Eureka and Castle, situations that are more for an older audience. Though there are some JPN animation that is just off the wall silly.

[Nate]

most of American animation is licensed overseas anyway, and is not really "American" (exception being Family Guy, American Dad and maybe Ben 10).

How are those exceptions? Family Guy and American Dad are done in Korean animation studios, they talk about it all the time on the commentary tracks for the show.

90% of the animated shows that are aired on US television is only done so to sell merchandise, so quality doesn't matter as long as it makes a company money.

If you think 90% of anime isn't done to sell merchandise, then I think blkmage would be very interested in telling you exactly how you're wrong in every conceivable way. :p

However, Japanese animation could be based more on the lines of our Soap Operas

Saying that is like saying "American live-action shows are all like soap operas."

It's amazing how many people in this thread are taking like four or five good anime shows and somehow holding them as being true of anime entirely. Like I said, that'd be like me saying that all live-action shows in America are like General Hospital and As the World Turns and Days of Our Lives.

[SolidÃ…rmor]

How are those exceptions? Family Guy and American Dad are done in Korean animation studios, they talk about it all the time on the commentary tracks for the show.

But, would it be considered "Japanese quality" animation? No. It's slap stick "Americanized" cartoons, cause that's what we expect in our "animation".

If you think 90% of anime isn't done to sell merchandise, then I think blkmage would be very interested in telling you exactly how you're wrong in every conceivable way. :p

I never said that it wasn't, as we were comparing the difference of US "cartoons" to Japanese animation. Plus, when you consider the last time you saw anything "anime" related being sold at a local Toy's R Us..it'll probably be next to zip...other than BeyBlade or the like.

The fact is the merchandise made for Japanese animation, usually has to be imported or Con-bought. It's not brought here and made readily available as Ben 10 figures or what have you.

Saying that is like saying "American live-action shows are all like soap operas."

It's amazing how many people in this thread are taking like four or five good anime shows and somehow holding them as being true of anime entirely. Like I said, that'd be like me saying that all live-action shows in America are like General Hospital and As the World Turns and Days of Our Lives.

I never said this either. I merely said that most really good anime series available can be compared to that of US soap operas, as in the stories can be really well written, have great drama, suspense, plot twists and the like as they are steered toward older audiences.

You can construe what I said all you like, but I would appreciate it if you kept in the context it was written and meant to convey.

[Radical Dreamer]

But, would it be considered "Japanese quality" animation? No. It's slap stick "Americanized" cartoons, cause that's what we expect in our "animation".

Just so you know, most anime is done at a super low frame rate and is not really all that "quality." OVAs and certain episodes will sometimes look better, but the majority of anime that airs on TV in Japan is not really that impressive, visually speaking.

Also, the attitude that American cartoons all suck simply because they're American, and are therefore not worthy of being referred to as animation except in quotation marks makes me sad. 8(

I never said that it wasn't, as we were comparing the difference of US "cartoons" to Japanese animation. Plus, when you consider the last time you saw anything "anime" related being sold at a local Toy's R Us..it'll probably be next to zip...other than BeyBlade or the like.

The fact is the merchandise made for Japanese animation, usually has to be imported or Con-bought. It's not brought here and made readily available as Ben 10 figures or what have you.

This is because we do not live in Japan. If we lived in Japan, I'm sure we'd all be seeing a lot more anime action figures and toys being sold in stores. But we don't. Because we live in America. Not Japan.

I never said this either. I merely said that most really good anime series available can be compared to that of US soap operas, as in the stories can be really well written, have great drama, suspense, plot twists and the like as they are steered toward older audiences.

FYI, soap operas do not have a great reputation in the US. High quality television dramas do, but not daytime soap operas. Is this what you meant?

[ABlipinTime]

*debates on whether he should comment on this thread*

So we agree, culture is made of people and people have sinful natures then, right? This thread reminds me of another one we had earlier where someone was ranting about American immaturity, though that conversation was about or diverted onto I think something to do with how women are treated.

Anyways,
I agree with Rock in the fact that some anime treat topics in a more mature manner than some American cartoons. I don't think that for the average anime, though. I can't compare the average anime to the average cartoon, and I don't think an averaging would do either justice. I should stop talking here while I have a very neutral position.

[goldenspines]

We're trying to compare American cartoons to Japanese animation? This is assuming they're are the "same thing", which they are not. Anime covers a much wider audience (almost all age brackets), meaning they can even sometimes be comparable to American live action drama/comedy shows as well as kid's cartoons. So, to simply compare it to American kid's cartoons (or even American cartoons in general which is either Saturday morning stuff or satirical comedy like The Simpsons) is unfair and illogical. Of course some of it's going to look more mature. It can be like comparing The Dark Knight to Ed, Edd, and Eddy. It's two different markets entirely and doesn't make sense to compare them.

[Nate]

But, would it be considered "Japanese quality" animation?

No, it's smoother and better animated than a majority of anime with the exception of big budget titles like Studio Ghibli and whatnot. I'm failing to see your point. Your point is that most American cartoons aren't really American because they have poor animation quality like anime does? Or...what? So South Park is anime? What are you even trying to say?

I never said that it wasn't, as we were comparing the difference of US "cartoons" to Japanese animation. Plus, when you consider the last time you saw anything "anime" related being sold at a local Toy's R Us..it'll probably be next to zip...other than BeyBlade or the like.

Okay, and your point was "American cartoons are made to sell toys." And so is anime in Japan. So why even mention it? Just because you don't see the toys for anime doesn't mean they don't exist. Most anime in Japan is--surprise!--made to sell merchandise. This of course normally isn't completely true of anime in the US for a few reasons. The fact remains that saying "American cartoons are made to sell merchandise!" has no weight as a statement, because anime is made to sell merchandise too.

Trust me, I watch Super Sentai and Kamen Rider on Keyhole TV every week. I see Japanese commercials for their shows. They sell all kinds of merchandise for their shows. Bento boxes, keychains, toys, snacks, games, shirts, pajamas, underwear, drinks...anime is HEAVILY merchandised. More so than most American cartoons even, actually. So your point in this is...what, exactly?

I merely said that most really good anime series available can be compared to that of US soap operas, as in the stories can be really well written, have great drama, suspense, plot twists and the like as they are steered toward older audiences.

And good American animation can too. What is your point? Are you claiming that Up, Wall-E, Lion King, or other such classics of animation can't be well-written or have great drama and suspense? Because I assure you, if you think it can't, I can recommend some titles. In fact, I just recommended three.

You can construe what I said all you like, but I would appreciate it if you kept in the context it was written and meant to convey.

I don't even know what you're trying to convey because it makes no sense.

[Radical Dreamer]

We're trying to compare American cartoons to Japanese animation? This is assuming they're are the "same thing", which they are not. Anime covers a much wider audience (almost all age brackets), meaning they can even sometimes be comparable to American live action drama/comedy shows as well as kid's cartoons. So, to simply compare it to American kid's cartoons (or even American cartoons in general which is either Saturday morning stuff or satirical comedy like The Simpsons) is unfair and illogical. Of course some of it's going to look more mature. It can be like comparing The Dark Knight to Ed, Edd, and Eddy. It's two different markets entirely and doesn't make sense to compare them.

Pretty much. /thread. XD

[Yuki-Anne]

This is because we do not live in Japan. If we lived in Japan, I'm sure we'd all be seeing a lot more anime action figures and toys being sold in stores. But we don't. Because we live in America. Not Japan.

This. A thousand times this. In fact, merchandise for AMERICAN cartoons is far more common here. There's hardly a store around that doesn't have some form of Disney merchandise. That doesn't even count the sheer volume of Hello Kitty, One Piece, and other assorted merchandise related to Japanese animation.