Fair Trade

[ChristianKitsune]

Ok, aside from those things then. Still, I can't afford $11 for 8 ounces of coffee...

... At the same time, I don't really need to drink half a pot in the morning.

Walmart actually sells some fairtrade coffee, I got some for less than 6 bucks.
Some examples are Seattle's Best and even Sam's Coffee... they both have that fair trade seal on them and the coffee's actually really good.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Yeah, I've heard others claiming that pharmaceutical companies basically want to keep people sick. I still don't really buy it. But who can say.

[Lynna]

Yeah, I've heard others claiming that pharmaceutical companies basically want to keep people sick. I still don't really buy it. But who can say.

Well, it's kind of logical...The more sick people are, the more they'll buy pharmaceutical products, so the more money they get. And the root of evil is the love of money, an a lot of people love money, so it wouldn't be too surprising. (I'm not completely saying I agree with that, I'm just pointing it out: though I have known someone whose medication made her illness worse but they wouldn't admit it so I suppose I'm biased)

[Nate]

I think it's foolish to think that all pharmaceutical companies are altruistic and wish to find cures for disease (because curing disease would be bad for their business), but at the same time I think it's foolish to assume all pharmaceutical companies are evil money-grubbers who want to see people suffer so they can get rich.

There's definitely a bit of both in the medical business.

[ChristianKitsune]

How did we get on the topic of Pharmaceutical companies and social justice? Please stay on topic guys there's already been a warning in this thread ^^;

Does anyone have a favorite free trade company? I'm still really new to all of it, as said earlier it was only recently brought to my attention about coffee...

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Free trade issues is within the scope of social justice. And if free trade encompasses medicine, then I think they're all pretty relevant topics too. So I don't see how they're quite off topic.

[shooraijin]

If you don't think social justice is a politically charged concept, we'll close this thread right now.

[Sheenar]

I'm thinking (if I'm remembering correctly) that Newman's Own Organics products are made from fair trade materials. I love their cookies/chocolate bars/peanut butter cups/Italian salad dressing/many others --plus, they donate a pretty big part of their profits to charity.

[Cognitive Gear]

I'm thinking (if I'm remembering correctly) that Newman's Own Organics products are made from fair trade materials. I love their cookies/chocolate bars/peanut butter cups/Italian salad dressing/many others --plus, they donate a pretty big part of their profits to charity.

Yeah, Newman's Own branded things give 100% of the profit (not the supermarket's, but the producer's) to various charities. They also make delicious products, so it's a huge win-win.

[ich1990]

While I like the idea of Fair Trade in theory, it doesn't strike me as very practical --especially when you can just take all the extra money and time you would have spent on this stuff and used it to start funding Third World entrepreneurs through Kiva or something.

On a related note, does anyone have any links to statistics on this stuff? How much does it actually help fight injustice to pursue Fair Trade purchases? I can't find much of anything through a simple google search.

[Nate]

start funding Third World entrepreneurs through Kiva or something.

Yeah right, like that self-aborting half-fangire loser would help anyone in third world countries.

[ShiroiHikari]

On a related note, does anyone have any links to statistics on this stuff? How much does it actually help fight injustice to pursue Fair Trade purchases? I can't find much of anything through a simple google search.

I said I was leaving this thread, but...*sigh*

I don't think the effects of buying fair trade can easily be quantified.

I also think that if you really, truly give a you-know-what about the citizens of third-world countries, then you should probably just get your butt over there and work among the people. You can't do jack from the outside.

Frankly, I'm tired of all this armchair activism I see everywhere these days. It doesn't actually solve anything; all it does is make privileged individuals feel better about themselves and still get their Starbucks. Do you really think buying fair trade is going to make people who run unethical operations start treating their workers like human beings? Please. Don't be so naive. It's a good deal more complicated than that. We as American civilians can affect very little change upon foreign governments from the outside, and asking our own government to meddle in the affairs of other countries...well, we all know how THAT usually goes.

[Fish and Chips]

While I like the idea of Fair Trade in theory, it doesn't strike me as very practical

I expected better from you Ich.

Don't you know that with every pair of cheaply manufactured shoes not sold, there is a statistical decrease in the number of times per day overseers beat their helpless, malnourished child workers?

Honestly, Ich, if you're not going to do your part, don't post in this thread.

[Radical Dreamer]

I don't really think anyone here intends to change the world just from buying clothes or food that weren't made through slave labor. The world is fallen and broken, and no single person will be able to do much about that. And let's face it, not all of us are called to be missionaries to other countries, especially not when we have our own poor and homeless who don't get enough to eat and don't have any place to sleep here in our own country, likely less than minutes from where we all live.

I don't believe anyone here said buying Free Trade was the answer to all of the world's problems. No, it won't stop the horrors that happen in other countries, but it at least encourages people to think about the effects of their actions. It at least encourages companies to re-think the way they manufacture their goods, if enough of the population shows that they won't stand for the companies' actions. It at least provides money to companies who are paying their workers fair wages, and it's contributing to their lifestyles, the food they can eat, and the children they're raising. And it at least does more than simply having a negative attitude towards all of it. Certainly buying Free Trade shouldn't be the only thing we do to care for the poor, but it's at least a start.

[Rusty Claymore]

The idea behind all this is nice, and I definitely support everyone's freedoms to support the movement, but I think great care should be taken in defining the harshness of the work condtitions. Is it actually cruel, or is it just not what we have here? As long as that question is honestly considered, like I said earlier, I think it's a great idea.

@Nate: In my first post I had said "less to do with trade", not "Nothing to do with trade", which you quoted me as saying. It's a little late, but I thought it was important to clarify, since it changes the tone of what I said quite a bit.

[Radical Dreamer]

The idea behind all this is nice, and I definitely support everyone's freedoms to support the movement, but I think great care should be taken in defining the harshness of the work condtitions. Is it actually cruel, or is it just not what we have here? As long as that question is honestly considered, like I said earlier, I think it's a great idea.

I'm going to take a page out of Yuki Anne's book and post this link I found from her the other day on the chocolate slavery trade:

http://vision.ucsd.edu/~kbranson/stopchocolateslavery/atasteofslavery.html#part1

You can see through reading the different parts of the article how children are abused, mistreated, lied to, and overworked to gather and ferment the beans used to make chocolate, which is then sold to companies like Hershey's. It's not just bad working conditions, it's slavery and abuse. I can't speak for other industries that I haven't read up on, but from what I can tell that seems to be the case for most industries like this.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I don't know about any of you guys, but I've grown very, very, very disillusioned with the world I live in. There's corruption everywhere and I for one refuse to be complacent with it all and simply "accept it" and choose that it can't be helped. It is the status quo and I see that as an injustice. I can speak for myself that I am sicked by the people are systematically raped so that big corporations can have coffee/minerals/diamonds/whatever. It sickens me enough to demand justice. And maybe some of us loathe injustice -- religious reasons or otherwise. These things have us asking "how can we contribute to the best of my own resources?" Maybe it's not spending three years in Africa. But maybe it's donating to a charitable organization. There needs to be helpers and benefactors in all aspects. For what I know, this world is the only one we have. And this world is full of people. Many of the people in the world are the cause of hurts, while others are of course on the receiving end.

And Annette, you're right. I am privileged. We are ALL in fact privileged to have food to each every day. To have a computer to communicate on. To have basic civil liberties (so to speak). I'm privileged to have an education. And I know I want to use my education so that I can make this world better. Even if it's just a little bit. Hopefully more. I know that I take the words of Christ seriously. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the widowed. All this while still trying to get through this thing called "existence". If I want to embody love, then I should do my best to make the world a better place.

If you guys feel that the people who invest their time, energy, and money into making even the slightest change are just "armchair activists" or "slacktivists" are only doing this for our own guilty conscience or pleasure or whatever, then sure. There's always people who turn activism into a fad. But from my experience some of these people truly desire to learn from these and try to develop their own methods of legitimate contribution. And maybe we're trying to work through with temporary solutions till we can work together for more permanent solutions, ya know? I don't have a Ph.D. in Economic Development like some other people I know. I'm just a fresh college graduate. But I am trying. And at least some people have a semblance of caring. I know that I want to try my best to avoid having to be held accountable to some crimes towards humanity, but also try to contribute to loving humanity. And even with all this, me buying only fair trade coffee doesn't make me "feel good" because I know there are far too many other problems in the world. Buying fair trade coffee doesn't stop international wars, ya know.

It's true that not all of us can't go to Somalia or Uganda and do peace or HIV work. But couldn't you consider that there are other avenues of helping? Some of us are going to school in the States to get a degree in economics or international development so they can be educated properly to be able to find an effectively solution to the problems of the world. I have friends who are doing precisely this. Maybe some of us want to eventually become educators so that we can train people to DO good in the world. Whether it be in the United States or in The Congo or whatever. I know I want to one day eventually be able to teach people to become licensed mental health counselors. Isn't that helping society? Social justice isn't simply going to Africa to help hurting people. There are people in the states who contribute to this too. People in the states recruit others, or raise money, or do academic research to find more effective solutions, etc.

Fair trade isn't perfect. But it's our way of trying. Maybe some people are content with buying Fair Trade coffee and consider it as "their part". Could they do more? Probably, but it's not my place to decide that. But it's unfair for you guys to assume that all of us who care are doing this to feel good about ourselves.

[TheMewster]

Anyway, the problem is, HOW CAN WE KNOW a company is 100% fair trade? Those kids in the chocolate industry were lied to! WE could be being lied to too! So the best thing to do is:

1. Buy used if possible for electronics. Or, share a lot. Buying used doesn't directly support the companies, so it's ok in my opinion.
2. Share. Share amongst yourselves so you don't have to buy as much unfair trade products.
3. Activism. RAISE AWARENESS!!! Many people don't even know about this modern day slavery! That's why the companies make so much off of this!
4. Self-Denial. Think about it, do you really NEED a chocolate bar every day? How about a DSi when your DS is working great just for some stupid game that you can't even take with you to Heaven? Jesus would NOT stand for this, and just being idle is not walking in love like He commands us to do.
5. Charity. Maybe try to donate at least 75% of the money spent on unfair trade goods that aren't used products to a charity that helps these kids. At least we will be balancing out the damage we're doing.
6. Pray. Don't forget to ask God about the situation. Maybe pray over which brand to buy. Pray for God to soften these people's hearts so this mess can be stopped.

I know I am probably being a hypocrite because I'm at the mercy of whatever my mom buys as I still live with her (I'm not out of school yet), I don't have a job and even then, in this economy I probably can't afford to do a lot of these things. But even a little shows compassion for these people. Maybe not to you guys. Maybe not to our neighbors. But to our Heavenly Father, I think it does. God bless!

Also, I found some advice on how to stop this. On Radical Dreamer's link she posted that she got from Yuki-Anne, skip down to Cocoa Q and A. But read the whole article too---it moved me to make this post! God bless these people!

[Fish and Chips]

The man who teaspoons water out of the sea does nothing to alleviate the suffering of the drowning.

Currently, there exist several industries profiting off human rights violations; because it's convenient, because it's cheap, because they don't "Look into it." You're angry. GOOD. You should be angry. So angry you can barely contain it. Your anger should be palpable.

So what should we do? Boycott these companies? Spread awareness?

You're thinking too small.

Yes, these companies profit from it, but they aren't responsible for it. They're short-sighted, self-centered, unsympathetic, disinterested, but they're not running the shops where children work themselves to death, or the mining operations where men dig and dig and die for the sake of a handful of semi-precious over-valued ore. You'll boycott these companies, perhaps even enough of you that they'll "Get around" to that investigation, "Realize" their error, and "Mend" their ways because, in the end, what's important to them is their image; meanwhile, cruel and petty men managing a rancid hellhole somewhere will continue to do things the way they always have because they couldn't care less what you think about them. These are not men of vision, men with big names; they don't concern themselves with public opinion or profit margins; they're not looking to take their business into a bold new direction full of possibilities but that child labor issues is killing their stock value.

They're just simple, petty humans looking to make a buck, whether it's from an international conglomerate or the black market (actually, everything probably gets channeled through the black market regardless). The only way they'd even briefly consider treating their workers with respect is if it somehow directly and personally cost them more to abuse them than to not abuse them. And even then, maybe not. Maybe they've come to enjoy it. I sincerely doubt the rape of women is "Just business."

Mewster suggested (twice, even) donating the difference in unfair trade goods to charity, "To balance out the damage we're doing." Not bad, not bad, considering those of us who make donations to charity would be doing more to actually address these wrongs than those of you worrying about whether or not your morning coffee is Fair Trade.

It's not that Fair Trade makes only the slightest of differences, it's that I'm not convinced Fair Trade even makes that much of a difference. I can't see how it makes any any difference, even the slightest, most insignificant difference. When I think Fair Trade is feelgood activism, I'm not saying that because you're only doing it to feel good about yourself, I'm saying it because feeling good about yourself is the only real change it inspires. Much more valuable is the spread of information that accompanies it.

A few posts back, Ryan recommending reading up on Operation PBSUCCESS. I did. The American government covertly influencing the political course of foreign nations out of self-interest, well now, that sounds a little familiar.

But even that wouldn't be enough. This goes deeper than the government, deeper than the social infrastructure. Simply put, every first world country on Earth would have to collectively wrest control from these countries, strip down their governments, weed out those responsible for these injustices, high and low, and revitalize these countries from the ground up over a period of years, pouring time, money, and manpower into these nations with no promise of ultimate gain of any kind.

I shouldn't need to tell you the likelihood of that happening.

And yet, it is the duty of good men to hate evil, to stand against it, to fight it, and remove it from where it grows. What can we do? What should we do?

Relief work, mission work, and charity. We can do nothing for these people from without, so we must do what we can from within. Send in doctors. Send in carpenters. Send in teachers. Christian or non-Christian, send good, honest people with loving hearts who can address their needs and improve their conditions. And slowly, maybe, we can spark some change deep in the hearts of men who never thought about what they did...before.

It isn't much; but it may be enough.

[TopazRaven]

I'm going to take a page out of Yuki Anne's book and post this link I found from her the other day on the chocolate slavery trade:

http://vision.ucsd.edu/~kbranson/stopchocolateslavery/atasteofslavery.html#part1

You can see through reading the different parts of the article how children are abused, mistreated, lied to, and overworked to gather and ferment the beans used to make chocolate, which is then sold to companies like Hershey's. It's not just bad working conditions, it's slavery and abuse. I can't speak for other industries that I haven't read up on, but from what I can tell that seems to be the case for most industries like this.

Seriously!? I can't believe Hershey would take part in something so disgusting! Figures that my favorite chocolate brand in the world has to resort to the slavery and abuse of children, I'm so dissapointed in them. I totally wanted to take a trip to Hershey Park this summer, but I don't think I can do that without a guilty conscious now. Finding free trade chocolate around here is actually rather difficult so I'm not sure what I'm going to do now when my urges for something chocolaty rise up. You would think these companies would care more about where their cocoa comes from.

As for everything else, I don't drink coffee, but I know my uncle does. Maybe I can talk to him about in least trying to buy some free trade beans. With clothes I always kind of just try and look for a made in USA tag since I've never seen anything around here with the fair trade tag. Though it doesn't help that my mom just brings me home clothes sometimes and doesn't look at where it is from. I do the same thing with fruits. Vegetables are usually from different countries so I looked up labor laws in the countries the vegetables we buy are from. I try to buy used games. My mom wants to buy a new DVD/VHS player since we don't have one, I'll have to see if I can find one made buy a fair trade company.

[TheMewster]

Amen Fish and Chips! And don't forget giving them the Gospel!

And Topaz, I would try to balance out the damage by donating to charity, but if you have a conviction against even buying chocolate, you need to obey it for it is from the Holy Spirit. And used IS good!

[Cognitive Gear]

I don't think it's a good thing to reprimand young people for trying to move the world to a kinder, gentler direction in the small ways they are capable of.

It's simple. It's all about money. Corporations do nothing if it doesn't profit them, and will do anything if it does. Fair Trade is about making it profitable to behave in an ethical manner. And yes, the corporations that we buy from would buy from more ethical suppliers if that's what the market demands. The US is a huge portion of that market, imagine what might happen if half the US suddenly decided to only buy things made through ethical means.

Idealistic, and it's not going to happen in my lifetime. It does, however, spread the information that action is needed. If I go shopping with a friend and pick up the Fair Trade brand of coffee they have never heard of, chances are they will ask about it.

No, buying fair trade is not enough. There is so much more to do, through sending teachers, relief workers, and other charitable things. But you know what? If it takes me 15 minutes of internet research to not contribute to abuse? It's worth doing. We are privileged. Over privileged. Surely we can spare a bit more time to choose to not support the abuse.

Especially if it's something like chocolate, coffee or jewelry. Things that are entirely unnecessary to living life.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Fish, I appreciate your honest response. I really respect that. Furthermore I agree with what you're saying (most of it, anyway).

I'm not saying (nor did I ever. If it ever seemed like I was implying this then I apologize in advance) that Fair Trade solves any issues. But if ANYTHING it can work as a first-step for us to acknowledge a problem. This is why I go far beyond just buying Fair Trade coffee. Instead, engaging in partnerships, education, and key resources. These are far more effective methods of seeking social justice. I've already mentioned all of those and I put a lot more stock in the effectiveness of those than simply buying a Fair Trade product.

However, there is still a factor that we cannot ignore when it comes to products which may have been manufactured at the expense of basic human rights. Do I personally want to buy products which may have been at the expense of others? No! But does this solve anything? Not in the grand scheme of things.

I disagree with you that it does absolutely nothing. Well let me rephrase that. It can do more for the consumer than it would for a Congolese slave miner. Because if anything it can broaden the understanding of an individual who may decide to invest his or her time into contributing to better solutions. And at the same time the individual knows that he did not personally contribute to the problem. At the same time, yes, there are MANY people who are content and complacent with simply buying fair trade. That bothers me. You should know. I've ranted many times about TOMS Shoes and their followers, lolz. There is a strong necessity for an education-component when it comes to effective humanitarianism and I think that we need to tap into those. Social justice ranges in many fields. From teachers, researchers, to fund-raisers. Whether it's state-side or overseas. We should all be doing our part, or perhaps be living a life which will lead to that part (e.g. get your social work/economic/polisci degree first then you can contribute more, etc).

[TopazRaven]

@Mew - I'm not really sure I feel a conviction yet, but I do feel bad for all those kids. I know I don't need it to live...but I seriously love chocolate. I don't make my own money yet, need a job first, so I unfortunatly don't actually have anything to donate at the moment. Once I do start making enough money I certainly will be open to donating to charity. I actually set a goal for myself to donate something to every charity I come across once I have a job. It's going to be interesting to see if I can actually afford to do it. Meanwhile I hadn't read Fish and Chip's post before I made mine and it has really got me thinking.

Edit: Actually taking the time to read that website about chocolate that RD posted, rather then boycotting chocolate (considering this could hurt the people you are trying to help) one suggestion was writing a letter to the company. I might not be the best at writting letters and I'm not sure how much this could actually help, but I might just do that.

[Cognitive Gear]

Feel good

This has been said a few times, and I just wanted to touch on it.

For myself, Fair Trade doesn't make me feel good. Or even feel better about myself. If anything, it can make me feel bad, and reminds me that there is so much more to do to help those in need. I mentioned earlier that I am still wearing the same shoes I bought over two years ago- this doesn't make me feel good. It actually makes me feel a bit gross and ridiculous. It reminds me that there are kids somewhere who work 16 hour workdays in sweatshops so I can have my shoes.

None of these things make me feel good. They do, however, remind me of the less fortunate, which is important. I like to think that Fair Trade products will do the same for others- remind them to help those that are in need that they can't see.

[shooraijin]

I don't think I made this plain, so now I'm making this plain.

The stated topic of fair trade is fine, so far as it goes, even though I don't see why we're doing this again. I assume the people who are in this thread either understand the intention and want to do it, or are considering doing it, and as far as I'm concerned a thread giving tips is totally kosher.

I'm even okay with pointing out that we can do more about those in need, because we certainly can.

However, when I specifically pegged social justice as a concept that was off limits, I mean it. Implicit in the very name is that there is a specific, clear, prescriptive directive of what is fair, and I don't see how that can't be entering a political discussion. Moreover, the term has been so co-opted for justifying a crusade against any perceived inequality, true, false, deleterious to exist or deleterious to fix, that it is essentially meaningless.

Either this is a critical issue for you or it isn't, and whichever way is unimportant to me. Similarly, either you get the concept of fair trade or you don't, and it's not like the stuff we're saying now in this thread wasn't said in the other one. Restrict this topic to companies and products you wish to highlight or steer people away from, and I have no objection. But if this starts sliding back into justice and inequality, it will be locked and I'll hand out strikes.

[TheMewster]

Hand out strikes..... Oh shoot. I need to leave this thread now---I dunno how many I have so I might get banned if I stay...
Bye!

[shooraijin]

We don't hand them out without telling you; you'd know (and for the record, you do not).

[Htom Sirveaux]

Oh. One of these. *shrug* Yeah, knock yourself out.

[TheMewster]

OK thanks! Anyway I got a warning in 1 thread so I was afraid I had a strike! And you're saying that you do it over PM not just the forum righ?