The decision not to have kids(a rant).

[FllMtl Novelist]

Well, I know my parents would love for me to get married and have children. Dad especially. XD But I'm not entirely sure if and how I want to have kids.

I don't know if I'll be able to get married, and even if I can, I don't know if I'd want to have kids that way. Not because the idea of being pregnant flusters me, or because the pain of childbirth scares me (neither is true), but raising kids is a huge responsibility, and there are a million things you can mess up without thinking. I'm not talking about paying for them (I'd want to wait until we were in a somewhat stable financial situation), I'm talking about the relationship between parents and their children. I wouldn't want my kids to hate me, or think I hate them, but I'm not exactly a ray of sunshine all the time. Especially with particularly happy young children. >_>;; Maybe I'm thinking too much about that aspect, I don't know.

Also, the idea of being surrounded by people staring at you while you give childbirth is not appealing.

When I'm older, and if I'm unmarried, financially stable, and think I could do a good job, I might want to adopt a few kids. Possibly teens, who I'd probably be able to communicate best with.

But of course, I'm young so my thoughts on this are subject to change.

[ich1990]

Okay, the overpopulation thing only applies to some countries. Here in Japan we have the opposite situation: Japan is in crisis because there aren't enough younger people growing up to carry on for the older generation.

EDIT: Haha, I said I'd leave but...

While individual locales might differ from the norm, the world itself is overpopulated and getting worse. We have a fixed amount of resources here and an ever increasing supply of people to try to share them with. Even now 1 billion+ people don't have clean water to drink. More people will only make that (and desertification, climate change, food shortages, etc) worse.

I know it can be easy to get caught up in the local view of whatever country you are living in, but the world is bigger than that. If Japan really wants more young people they should create immigration incentives for Indians or another such overpopulated country.

[ADXC]

@ ich- While that is a good point, I do not like that view because simply every creature is special and God-breathed. Which is why I'm against another view which I won't talk about here.

Thinking of children as using up all of ones resources in an area on Earth is not a great reason to not have kids in my opinion. Sure, if you are not financially stable to support a kid, then don't have the kid. But don't say one can't have the kid just because you consider them a waste and leech on society.


God has a purpose for everyone so we should not be afraid of overpopulation IMO. God will take care of us.

[Yamamaya]

[quote="goldenspines (post: 1483728)"]Side note to the OP: I'm going to be quite honest here]

Because clearly I think of babies like pieces of furniture.

But seriously, I was just trying to use an analogy of deciding to make something that you don't have to make if you don't want to. It doesn't make me selfish if I decide not to make something, whether it be a baby or something else. When you decide to have a baby, you don't normally do it for other people. It's a very personal decision between you and your spouse. Plus if you want to get technical, the most selfless thing to do would be to adopt or foster a child rather than having one yourself.

I chose the chair analogy since my philosophy professor used a chair for an analogy or a tool to explain a particular theory constantly so it kind of stuck in my mind. I do apologize that my example offended you. I can see why that could be taken the wrong way
@Yuki. Easy solution to that. Allow more immigration. Of course, this suggestion would open up a huge can of worms among Japanese citizens and politicians. so that's a topic for another time.

[Yuki-Anne]

While individual locales might differ from the norm, the world itself is overpopulated and getting worse. We have a fixed amount of resources here and an ever increasing supply of people to try to share them with. Even now 1 billion+ people don't have clean water to drink. More people will only make that (and desertification, climate change, food shortages, etc) worse.

I know it can be easy to get caught up in the local view of whatever country you are living in, but the world is bigger than that. If Japan really wants more young people they should create immigration incentives for Indians or another such overpopulated country.

Not to get overly political, but I don't buy this argument at all, simply because certain parts of the world (Japan and the USA, for example), actually have a MAJOR surplus of supplies, while other countries have problems that could be solved simply by the introduction of more modernized technology and more efficient governing techniques.

[Nate]

God has a purpose for everyone so we should not be afraid of overpopulation IMO. God will take care of us.

I don't agree with this at all. If something is dangerous or a problem, we shouldn't just ignore it and say "God will take care of us."

I mean, what if I was playing in the middle of the highway and someone said "Don't do that, it's dangerous" and my response was "God has a purpose for me so I shouldn't be afraid of playing in this highway. God will take care of me." You'd think I was a total idiot, right? And you'd think that because I am clearly doing something harmful and ignoring it because of a misguided belief that "God will solve all my problems."

And I think overpopulation is the same way. It's a proven fact that there are a limited number of resources on the planet. Obviously this isn't a "OMG STOP HAVING KIDS OR WE'RE ALL DOOMED" situation, and obviously as ich said, making laws like China does is the wrong way to go. But to ignore an obvious problem that is potentially harmful just because "God will take care of us" is, as I said, extremely dangerous thinking.

On that note, I don't want kids, which is fine because I can't have kids anyway. Seeing as how you need a female to produce children.

[ChristianKitsune]

I think a lot of this comes down to maturity. The majority of posters here, (myself included) probably are not ready for a child in their lives, and so right now many of us are like "No kids for me KTHNX"

But like Goldy said they aren't here to destroy our lives and suck the fun out of everything. We were all kiddos once too, after all.

I think one day my views on having a family will change. But right now I'm okay with not having another mouth to feed. (A cat is sometimes hard enough )

[Yamamaya]

Ok, so it's not very Christ-like of me, but I do occasionally find myself looking down on those who don't want children. (Not those who can't or don't believe they can have them.) Mostly because it royally ticks me off that someone finds themselves inconvieniced by a fearfully and wonderfully made little critter. However, I definitely appreciate my rights to my opinions, so I won't force them on others. (btw, that's just my personal take on it, and I'm not implying this on anybody here. XD)

I think Shooraijin makes a good point.

I appreciate your honesty and politeness.

I do have a few small issues with that. For one, having kids is not cheap. It takes a lot of time, money, and care to raise a child. Thus, if you want to have one, you better be prepared and you better well like kids. If someone doesn't really like kids in the first place(I don't really mind them), and is very impatient, then why should they be expected to have a child? If anything, it might turn out badly for the child if someone who isn't prepared and doesn't like children to go ahead and have one.

I wasn't intending to call you out. I just found your post a convenient one to respond to for my thoughts.

[Okami]

Anyone wanting to see my personal stance on celibacy may do so at my testimony thread here, I won't repeat it, when it's already been written and thought out.

That being said, I have run across quite a bit since my decision/calling in October. I have run across those who think it is selfish, those who believe I need to give my parents grandchildren (I know they wouldn't mind, either ), basically everything that has been mentioned here as reasons to have children have been pressured onto me. But the church as I've seen it has often lacked in the area of ready-minded singles.

That is, those that are willing to step up and help where help is needed (whether chair setup, nursery work, leading Sunday school, helping out financially, etc.) and I feel very much a responsibility to step up and do as the church needs. Yes - a married couple with kids could do that too, but not as readily. I've already quoted from 1 Corinthians 7.

The unfortunate bit is the groups that seem to be solely couples-minded, that is, if you're single, single's ministry means pairing you up with an able man/woman; that one can't do the same/more work than the married couple, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm capable of being myself without being with someone. (My best friend and I had this discussion earlier today). But we are communal creatures - and Jesus Himself is the best example we have to living in community. A spouse and kids do not complete us, but God does, and for the single person, the offset is the community we pour and invest our lives into.

[ADXC]

I still hold to my stance regardless.

[Yamamaya]

Anyone wanting to see my personal stance on celibacy may do so at my testimony thread here, I won't repeat it, when it's already been written and thought out.

That being said, I have run across quite a bit since my decision/calling in October. I have run across those who think it is selfish, those who believe I need to give my parents grandchildren (I know they wouldn't mind, either ]pretty[/I] sure I'm capable of being myself without being with someone. (My best friend and I had this discussion earlier today). But we are communal creatures - and Jesus Himself is the best example we have to living in community. A spouse and kids do not complete us, but God does, and for the single person, the offset is the community we pour and invest our lives into.

While I don't agree with some of the traditional Christian ideas on sex(which is an entirely different can of worms) I definitely respect your decision Okami and I think a lot of good will come out of it. I definitely admire your goal to reach the broken and less fortunate.

This is a problem in our society. Single people think we are somehow worth less than those who are in a relationship, which is ludicrous. Books like Twilight which insists you are nothing if you don't have a significant other don't help

You can dedicate yourself more to your dreams and spirtual work with your method. Although like Paul says, it is important that we do not apply these standards to everyone and insist that everyone take that path.

Edit: As TWWK mentioned, people change and I might change my mind and decide to have kids later in life. But as for nao, nothxk

[Arya Raiin]

LOL! I'm different than most of my friends. I love kids. They can teach their mothers and fathers a lot about God's love. Of course, I've had a lot of experience taking care of kids. That may be why I feel that I want to have one or two. I don't really want to have more than two, but I think that they would be a wonderful blessing to have in the future.

For people who don't want to have kids, it's perfectly fine! Some people don't want the extra stress of kids (which just from babysitting I can tell there is a lot). However, make sure you have enough stability in your life once you have them. Less stress on you and less stress on them.

[ashfire]

If what I heard tonight comes about. The government could shut down the use of birth control pills. This could mean having to use other means to prevent having children. Some of which could mean doing something that people consider un Godly.
I myself do like the idea of doctors preforming something that could end a life but I do favor birth control over that.
I know some older parents that after years of not having a family change their minds and want children which could be dangerous for the mother and the child. Many problems can also come about and may not happen. I would say it depends on what on God's willing.

[Yamamaya]

If what I heard tonight comes about. The government could shut down the use of birth control pills. This could mean having to use other means to prevent having children. Some of which could mean doing something that people consider un Godly.
I myself do like the idea of doctors preforming something that could end a life but I do favor birth control over that.
I know some older parents that after years of not having a family change their minds and want children which could be dangerous for the mother and the child. Many problems can also come about and may not happen. I would say it depends on what on God's willing.

FIRST RULE OF POLITICS BRO

DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

Seriously though, this thread will get locked if we go in the direction of a birth control and abortion argument.

[Nate]

Yeah can we not start an abortion/birth control debate in this thread? Not only is it political, this thread is already prone to arguments on its own merits. :\

[Okami]

While I don't agree with some of the traditional Christian ideas on sex(which is an entirely different can of worms) I definitely respect your decision Okami and I think a lot of good will come out of it. I definitely admire your goal to reach the broken and less fortunate.

This is a problem in our society. Single people think we are somehow worth less than those who are in a relationship, which is ludicrous. Books like Twilight which insists you are nothing if you don't have a significant other don't help

You can dedicate yourself more to your dreams and spirtual work with your method. Although like Paul says, it is important that we do not apply these standards to everyone and insist that everyone take that path.

Edit: As TWWK mentioned, people change and I might change my mind and decide to have kids later in life. But as for nao, nothxk

Thank you - it's always helpful to hear affirmation on what I'm trying to do with my life (even if it's not physically obvious right now.) I'm tired of life-lectures at the moment.

It's often so difficult because much of society screams that without another, you've got little to nothing to contribute. Yeah, media doesn't much help. If someone were to ask me what I expected out of life this time last year, I would have spoken totally different; now that husband (and children) is/are more out of the picture than it was then, now that my life's prospective is altered from what it was, I am able to more focus on my (future) ministry and do what I love doing - helping others.

And I agree, each person has their gifts. It's not up to us to decide, seeing as it's God who hands them out. XD

[Sapphire225]

FIRST RULE OF POLITICS BRO

DON'T TALK ABOUT IT.

Seriously though, this thread will get locked if we go in the direction of a birth control and abortion argument.

I don't think he went too indepth to throw it into that much danger.

OT

Like many said before, a younger person's stance may change as they grow older. However, I plan to travel around the world after I obtain my degree, as well as write about those experiences along with other books. Although it is very possible to do that with children, it is harder both financially and mentally to do it with them than without them. Your freedom to do certain things is limited sometimes when you have children (not to say that children won't bring good experiences as well), but for a career I want to pursue, it would be something I would rather do with my husband with the same ideals, a close friend, or by myself.

Depending on one's aspirations and goals, finances, maturity, view on children and character, there will be some people not fitted or in their best interest to or to not have children. For people to think that have a child is an obligation clearly have ot keep in mind that it can be taxing on those who have no desire to have any. Just like in marriage, you'll have to make many sacrifices, some that are extremely important to someone.

[Yuki-Anne]

[quote="Okami (post: 1483772)"]Thank you - it's always helpful to hear affirmation on what I'm trying to do with my life (even if it's not physically obvious right now.) I'm tired of life-lectures at the moment.

It's often so difficult because much of society screams that without another, you've got little to nothing to contribute. Yeah, media doesn't much help. If someone were to ask me what I expected out of life this time last year, I would have spoken totally different]

Don't forget that Mother Teresa, one of the most famous and influential women of the past century, was celibate.

EDIT: Also, not to be condescending or anything, but you guys who are 16 or 17... I'd seriously be more worried if you felt like you were ready for kids. You're not even legally old enough to be married.

[Hiryu]

I can see your point on not having children. Yes, they can be dreadfully annoying with the whining and the wreaking havoc and whatnot. I'm sure most anyone who has taken care of a child will tell you the same. If not, they're probably delusional.

But, there seems to be some sort of rewarding feeling when it comes to raising kids. Something I'm sure we won't be able to fully experience ourself until we have our children. Perhaps it is the child's first A on a test, and hopefully the many more to come. Perhaps it is the fact that your child made the winning point for the school's sports team. Perhaps it is the feeling you will experience when you know that they've become a christly example for their friends and others. Something that just makes you proud at what you and your loved one have created. Blood is a special bond between people.

[ich1990]

Not to get overly political, but I don't buy this argument at all, simply because certain parts of the world (Japan and the USA, for example), actually have a MAJOR surplus of supplies, while other countries have problems that could be solved simply by the introduction of more modernized technology and more efficient governing techniques.

That is fine, you have the right to disagree. I respect that. I don't understand it, but I respect it since you seem to have thought your ideas through.

How about I state it like this, then. Even if Earth isn't at capacity now, it will be eventually. Given its current exponential rate of growth, eventually is going to happen sooner rather than later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Population_curve.svg

Why not start fixing the problem now, gradually, before (according to your opinion) it becomes a significant issue?

[Okami]

Don't forget that Mother Teresa, one of the most famous and influential women of the past century, was celibate.

EDIT: Also, not to be condescending or anything, but you guys who are 16 or 17... I'd seriously be more worried if you felt like you were ready for kids. You're not even legally old enough to be married.

I love Mother Teresa. My dean of students/mentor gave me a couple books of hers to read when I was first struggling to understand what it meant to be celibate; I was awed by her persistance to reach out to those in need. She's one of the people who have really shown me what dedication to one's work for the Lord really means.

[ADXC]

@ ich-Unless you can tell massive amounts of people not to copulate, I don't see how one can defeat the overpopulation problem.

[Sheenar]

My brother in law who has two kids agrees with my logic when I say, "The nice thing about being an uncle is you get to see your nephews for a while, then they go home to their parents"

My friend Patrick has mentioned many times he doesn't want kids, but wants to be the uncle who, when nieces/nephews visit, he fills them with sugar and sends them back to their parents.


As for me, I wouldn't be able to carry a child safely to term, most likely. While I'd like to experience it, it wouldn't be a good idea --not just the carrying to term part, but also the risk of passing on something bad genetically.

I would like to get married and adopt, though. Adoption has been on my heart for years. I want with all my heart to give a child the loving home I didn't have growing up and to instill in them that their life does matter to God --and to fulfill God's call to care for the orphan (as well as the widow and the stranger, but those are other ministries.)


And, Yuki, I know what you mean about wanting kids so badly but not having any foreseeable chances of finding a husband. I worry that my disability will prevent me from getting married --because most guys I know aren't willing to deal with being with a person with a chronic illness. So this is a bit depressing for me too. I'm 25, so I still have time as well, but...it's definitely something I long for --to have a family.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Meh, I'd like to get married someday. If I have kids or not, well, we'll just see what the Lord does there.

Really though, most of the time kids are only as misbehaved as you let them be. Just as a spouse does, kids will also teach you how to be more patient and selfless. If you're impatient, well, you mist just have to learn how to be patient.

[shooraijin]

Given its current exponential rate of growth, eventually is going to happen sooner rather than later.

This is likely to get dreadfully off-topic, but essentially this is Malthusianism. No one seriously believes the world's carrying capacity is limitless, but at the same time as our population has grown technology has also grown at an arguably faster rate to compensate, particularly with regards to the so-called "Green Revolution" (not to be confused with environmentalism). Moreover, the sorts of inadequacies you mention are definitely not equally distributed. In fact, as Yuki-Anne pointed out, many developed nations are struggling with low birth rates and a shrinking pool of people of working age. Even the United States has some issues in this regard, and Japan and many European nations have this problem acutely.

So, while there is certainly impoverishment in many large regions of the world, I think that is not really relevant to many or even most of us when making the personal decision to have children, and there are many good arguments in developed countries for even trying to increase the birth rate. Moreover, it is hardly a given that technology will not continue on a similar trajectory. After all, births certainly haven't. Wikipedia summarizes this well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate

But, all that is entirely orthogonal to Yamamaya's original post.

[Xeno]

Why not start fixing the problem now, gradually, before (according to your opinion) it becomes a significant issue?

TO OUTER SPACE!!!

Anywho, I'll go ahead and put in my deux pennies. I used to think the idea of having children was terrible, I never wanted to have kids. I had a lot of trouble dealing with them, and still do. Most kids and I have never seemed to quite click. That being said, over the last couple of years my opinion has changed so that I'm open to the idea. I wouldn't want more than two, but having those wouldn't be such a terrible thing. The only part of the child rearing thing that I'm unwilling to deal with at my current age is the "terrible twos." I have a cousin who has a 2 year old and I honestly cannot stand the child. I purposely avoid her, just like I do my cousin who is her father (but that's a completely different story).

So point is, I wouldn't mind it, but I've gotta find me a woman first, so I'll worry about kids when the time comes.

[ich1990]

This is likely to get dreadfully off-topic, but essentially this is Malthusianism. No one seriously believes the world's carrying capacity is limitless, but at the same time as our population has grown technology has also grown at an arguably faster rate to compensate, particularly with regards to the so-called "Green Revolution" (not to be confused with environmentalism). Moreover, the sorts of inadequacies you mention are definitely not equally distributed. In fact, as Yuki-Anne pointed out, many developed nations are struggling with low birth rates and a shrinking pool of people of working age. Even the United States has some issues in this regard, and Japan and many European nations have this problem acutely.

So, while there is certainly impoverishment in many large regions of the world, I think that is not really relevant to many or even most of us when making the personal decision to have children, and there are many good arguments in developed countries for even trying to increase the birth rate. Moreover, it is hardly a given that technology will not continue on a similar trajectory. After all, births certainly haven't. Wikipedia summarizes this well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate

But, all that is entirely orthogonal to Yamamaya's original post.

The above still doesn't address the moral problem of ignoring orphans, but you are right, this is very off topic. I will withdraw from the discussion.

[shooraijin]

Indeed, adoption is clearly highly honourable. But I don't think that it makes wanting to have a child of your own less so. It's just a different personal calculation.

[Yuki-Anne]

I think if I hit 30 or 35, have a stable job, and there's still no possibility of marriage in sight, I'm going to see what my options are for fostering/adoption.

[Atria35]

I think if I hit 30 or 35, have a stable job, and there's still no possibility of marriage in sight, I'm going to see what my options are for fostering/adoption.

I actually have that as my plan! If I'm married by that time, then I still want to adopt by then, though.