John Piper on "The Prosperity Gospel"

[TGJesusfreak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s

This vid is only about 3 minutes long. It really hit me hard and made me think. I figured I'd share this with you guys and see what yall think. =)

[Radical Dreamer]

I actually watched this video on my brother's blog the other day, and I agree so much with what he's saying. XD The video I'm linking, by the way, is basically the ten minute version of what you posted, I think. XD Still John Piper's views of the prosperity gospel, just more detailed. XD

[Seto_Sora]

Honestly, i really like John Piper. He can be a bit poignent with his words, but he drives home a truth. the fact is, we don't worship a God of health, wealth, and prosperity. Look at the heroes of faith! Paul was afflicted, scorned, stoned, beaten, and beheaded. The disciples were all martyred. John the Baptist was imprisoned and beheaded. King David was sought after to be killed by the king, then when all seemed to go well for him, he sinned with Bathsheba, lost his child. Moses was hated by the people he came to save. And think of Job, who lost all his children at once. He did this very thing, he fell on his face and worshiped God.
The God we love and serve suffered for us and told us that in this life we would suffer for Him. We are broken and breaking vessels for His glory, and it does bring Him glory to proclaim Him, to worship Him, to trust Him. So yeah, I agree with this vid.
What are your thoughts TG?

SDG

[Nate]

My thoughts are that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

[Seto_Sora]

I actually watched this video on my brother's blog the other day, and I agree so much with what he's saying. XD The video I'm linking, by the way, is basically the ten minute version of what you posted, I think. XD Still John Piper's views of the prosperity gospel, just more detailed. XD

Haha! I love that! A "theology of suffering". Wait that probably sounds morbid. What I mean is I agree totally with Piper here. We have to have a theology of suffering! That is our faith... but if I say more I'll end up repeating myself. ^_^

SDG

[ShiroiHikari]

I agree on the point that we, as Christians, SHOULD NOT attempt to dupe the very poor into thinking that all Jesus is good for is providing earthly goods.

However, I really didn't interpret this as saying, "Everyone should suffer". What he's saying is that God is glorified the most when we glorify Him even when we are suffering. I don't think we should seek to make ourselves or others suffer, but suffering happens. It rains on the just and the unjust alike.

[Seto_Sora]

I agree on the point that we, as Christians, SHOULD NOT attempt to dupe the very poor into thinking that all Jesus is good for is providing earthly goods.

However, I really didn't interpret this as saying, "Everyone should suffer". What he's saying is that God is glorified the most when we glorify Him even when we are suffering. I don't think we should seek to make ourselves or others suffer, but suffering happens. It rains on the just and the unjust alike.

Yeah I didn't get the idea that we should seek out suffering. Rather, like you said, suffering happens. Indeed, we were told it would happen if took up our cross and followed Christ. But seeking it out seems kinda daffy to me. ^_^ Rather, I think it should be thought of that we should expect suffering. It'll come, we can't avoid it, but if we cling to Christ, we have a sure hope that all will be well, holding fast to Him who parted seas and walked on waters.

SDG

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I suppose even John Piper and I have something in common.

I hate prosperity gospel in even the most loosest form. To embody love is to become selfless; not to seek the American Dream. I hate the mentality of "seeking for blessings" which I hear a lot from people and churches nowadays. I wish we'd stop caring for our gain and instead care for the gains of others. This is what the message of Christ was and this is how we embody love. Prosperity Gospel is a boatload of bullcrap and is not the message of my Jesus.

To love is to be at least willing to suffer. And to love is to put yourself up for despair. But it's the grace of God which lets us carry this through, and this is where the intrinsic beauty to suffering is. Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky write so much on this.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Oh cool. I've heard his name before, but I had no idea about him. Yay, another Calvinist.

I dunno. That prosperity gospel is working pretty well for Creflo Dollar.

[Syreth]

I disagree with the prosperity gospel as well. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that God is MOST glorified in the midst of suffering. I wouldn't presume to say what most glorifies God, except, you know, Jesus.

There seems to be this underlying feeling that Christians should be experiencing suffering, or else they're not very spiritual. I feel that this feeling drives people to either manufacture their own suffering or seek it out. Not that Mr. Piper is intending to do this, but I do sense some of this particular feeling in his video.

[shooraijin]

Everybody likes a little drama.

[QtheQreater]

Everybody likes a little drama.

Especially if it increases rhetorical appeal. Which, you'll have to admit, this video does better than a less dichotomous setup would.

[blkmage]

The thing to remember is that it's a three minute snippet that someone else took from one of his sermons and fancied up, so it's silly to be judging what he's trying to say that's deeper than 'the prosperity gospel is bad' without actually going through his entire argument in context.

[Nate]

Yeah but even three minutes of John Piper is too much for me to listen to. If I have to listen to more of him to get context then I don't want it.

[ShiroiHikari]

I disagree with the prosperity gospel as well. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that God is MOST glorified in the midst of suffering. I wouldn't presume to say what most glorifies God, except, you know, Jesus.

Hmm, that's a pretty good point.

There seems to be this underlying feeling that Christians should be experiencing suffering, or else they're not very spiritual. I feel that this feeling drives people to either manufacture their own suffering or seek it out. Not that Mr. Piper is intending to do this, but I do sense some of this particular feeling in his video.

Same here. A lot of Christian authority figures from my childhood used to say that if I wasn't suffering all the time, I was doing it wrong. I...guess I don't really see the logic there.

[Nate]

A lot of Christian authority figures from my childhood used to say that if I wasn't suffering all the time, I was doing it wrong. I...guess I don't really see the logic there.

It's a misapplication and misinterpretation of a few verses. One is the story of Job, where Job suffered greatly because he was such a great person and did nothing wrong, and it was all some sort of cosmic test. So they take that to mean that if you're suffering it's a test to prove how good you are.

There's also the verse where Jesus says that just as the world hated Him, so the world will also hate His followers. So then clearly the more hated you are, the more Christian you are. This is why Christians have developed a persecution complex in the US, since they're not persecuted at all they have to invent persecution where none exists so they can feel like they're being hated like Jesus said they would be.

Actually taking that verse to its logical conclusion (that the more hated you are the more Christian you are) Fred Phelps is the most Christian man on the planet. Which is pretty dumb!

There's finally the verse in James that says we should rejoice in trials and suffering because they're making us better and if you're not suffering then obviously you're not becoming better at being Christian. Or something.

I'm sure there's other verses that I'm forgetting but I think those are the big ones.

[Peanut]

I disagree with the prosperity gospel as well. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that God is MOST glorified in the midst of suffering. I wouldn't presume to say what most glorifies God, except, you know, Jesus.

There seems to be this underlying feeling that Christians should be experiencing suffering, or else they're not very spiritual. I feel that this feeling drives people to either manufacture their own suffering or seek it out. Not that Mr. Piper is intending to do this, but I do sense some of this particular feeling in his video.

Hmm, well I'm going to say this depends on what anyone, Piper included, means by suffering. I haven't look into Piper's views really so I can't speak for him, but I know that Jurgen Moltmann, who is one of if not the top theologian alive today, combines suffering with love making the two inseparable. To people like Moltmann love comes with the price of leaving oneself completely vulnerable to another and therefore open to suffering. There's more to this but it would be getting to far off topic and my memory on this aspect of Moltmann's theology is a little rusty. My point though is that there are some views of suffering that make it almost essential to a degree to be a Christian. But, from the looks of things, these views aren't really what you or anyone else was talking about. So yeah, I agree with you but have to say that we need to be aware of some of these other view points that don't really go against what we ourselves believe.

As for the video I would be interested to find out how widespread the prosperity gospel really is being preached in Asia and Africa. I'm sure it is (in fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I can think of one person who does preach it but isn't American so...yeah...) but I'm hesitant to characterize the vast majority of the mission's work coming out of America as being heavily influenced by it. Besides that the prosperity gospel is what most people have already said it is in this thread, though I do think it is somewhat important to remember that God can work through even bad theology to impact and change people's lives. So even someone like Joel Osteen can contribute to the Kingdom of God even if what he says is mostly false.

[Nate]

While I do agree that God can work even through bad theology, I still think the prosperity gospel is dangerous. Especially to people in Africa, it can be actively harmful. If they get into their heads that God will make you wealthy and healthy and happy if you believe, and they still continue to be poor and suffer, then they will either conclude that they are bad Christians and are going to Hell and be miserable, or that those evangelists were huge liars and don't believe anything they say.

Which could then be spread to other places there. "Oh if some guy comes and talks to you about someone named Jesus, don't listen, he's just making stuff up. He told me about Jesus and how Jesus would make me rich and I'm just as poor as ever, what a bunch of liars."

[aliveinHim]

The prosperity Gospel is not the real Gospel of Christ. Look at Job. Sure he was wealthy then look what happened. Case and point. Granted, he got twice of everything back but look at that hardship he had to go through.

[Peanut]

While I do agree that God can work even through bad theology, I still think the prosperity gospel is dangerous. Especially to people in Africa, it can be actively harmful. If they get into their heads that God will make you wealthy and healthy and happy if you believe, and they still continue to be poor and suffer, then they will either conclude that they are bad Christians and are going to Hell and be miserable, or that those evangelists were huge liars and don't believe anything they say.

Which could then be spread to other places there. "Oh if some guy comes and talks to you about someone named Jesus, don't listen, he's just making stuff up. He told me about Jesus and how Jesus would make me rich and I'm just as poor as ever, what a bunch of liars."

Well, I did a tad bit of research back into some of the various things I have left over from college and managed to stumble upon where I heard mention of prosperity gospel being preached in other nations. It is the fastest growing movement within Pentecostalism which also happens to be the fastest growing sect of Christianity. So, its safe to say it is being spread into these countries at a somewhat high rate. However, the book I'm looking at makes an interesting point which is that not every person preaching this is just saying "Believe in God and you will get money." Some are showing or helping their congregations start small businesses and other stuff. So, it looks like to me that at its very best, the Prosperity Gospel is a double edged sword in these countries. On one hand it can lift people's expectations and perception, motivating them to improve their worldly position. On the other hand it comes with the risks you've mentioned, and even in its best form they don't go away. I should also mention that within Pentecostalism there has been a major push for social justice as well. So, the Prosperity Gospel does have competition and I'm pretty sure social justice is winning out. Again, I can't say for certain, but it does seem that way.

[QtheQreater]

I should also mention that within Pentecostalism there has been a major push for social justice as well. So, the Prosperity Gospel does have competition and I'm pretty sure social justice is winning out. Again, I can't say for certain, but it does seem that way.

Just to clarify, are you talking about social justice or liberation theology?

[Peanut]

Just to clarify, are you talking about social justice or liberation theology?

Social justice. Though honestly I have a hunch that there is a connection between the two in many Christian circles since liberation theology has been pretty influential.

[Nate]

I've never understood the phrase "social justice." I mean how is justice anything but social? You can't have "individual justice" can you?

[QtheQreater]

Social justice. Though honestly I have a hunch that there is a connection between the two in many Christian circles since liberation theology has been pretty influential.

Just thought I'd check, seeing as liberation theology is the other end of the spectrum from the prosperity gospel and was in the recent past the more popular message going out to third world countries. I'm still wondering what exactly people mean by social justice, though.

While I do agree that God can work even through bad theology, I still think the prosperity gospel is dangerous. Especially to people in Africa, it can be actively harmful. If they get into their heads that God will make you wealthy and healthy and happy if you believe, and they still continue to be poor and suffer, then they will either conclude that they are bad Christians and are going to Hell and be miserable, or that those evangelists were huge liars and don't believe anything they say.

Which could then be spread to other places there. "Oh if some guy comes and talks to you about someone named Jesus, don't listen, he's just making stuff up. He told me about Jesus and how Jesus would make me rich and I'm just as poor as ever, what a bunch of liars."

I agree, and I remember one of my professors giving a specific example of a woman in Africa that either he or someone he worked with knew. She was pregnant and believed in the prosperity gospel (health, wealth, and prosperity, remember, not just wealth). She had a miscarriage]I've never understood the phrase "social justice." I mean how is justice anything but social? You can't have "individual justice" can you?[/QUOTE]

I think the usual meaning has to do with fixing the system that causes injustice. Meaning it's almost always political. What that means as a gospel movement, I'm not so sure about.

[TGJesusfreak]

I watched a few other video on John Piper to get a better context for things. What his main point is is that telling someone "you need Jesus" when they have it really good and no sufferings at all, and you have money and are rich, etc... it doesnt quite have the same feel as when some one who is hurting and sad tells you "you need Jesus". That's a VAST generalization but you get the idea.



on another ADD note. The words Social Justice drive me nuts. I hate them, I prefer EQUAL Justice XD. Anyway, that's not what this thread is about. XP!

[Cognitive Gear]

The prosperity gospel is problematic, that much is clear.

However, I really tend to think that we should be careful when throwing around the words "hate" and "abominate". We need to be certain that we are clear that detesting an idea and practice is separate from the people who believe in it or propagate it. This is a lot more difficult than it sounds, as most people hold their beliefs close enough that it becomes very easy to equivocate distaste for an idea as distaste for the person.

on another ADD note. The words Social Justice drive me nuts. I hate them, I prefer EQUAL Justice XD. Anyway, that's not what this thread is about. XP!

What is equal justice? Most of the proponents of social justice would say that social justice is about the equal value of mankind, no matter their earthly possessions, location, race, etc.

EDIT: If your reply to this last bit is political, please PM it so we can keep away from that.

[Peanut]

I've never understood the phrase "social justice." I mean how is justice anything but social? You can't have "individual justice" can you?

You have a point here Nate. Anyway, Q has pretty much said what I could say about this so nothing else to add.

[Nate]

Most of the proponents of social justice would say that social justice is about the equal value of mankind, no matter their earthly possessions, location, race, etc.

As one of those proponents, I can say that this is indeed what I would say.

[Sapphire225]

Basically, my two cents is this.

One of the things my church taught me was that when you are a christian, your life will actually be a bit harder due to the circumstances that will come against you and the way you'll react to them. Also, the prosperity thing is not really the best way to evangelize at all.

I mean, God does bless us and always provides a way out, but that doesn't mean life is going to be smooth-sailing. Also, you have to keep in mind that this life is but only fragile and is much too short for material things which can satisfy for a moment but forever. I remember reading something along the lines that one who thirsts for water will thirst again later but one who thirsts for Christ and his word can be forever forfilled. We have to keep in mind that everything around us can crumble at any second and life is fragile and can be gone in the blink on an eye. John Piper pointed out that God won't promise giving you a BMW, just like that. What would be the point? You would only be asking God for material things and would, perhaps, become spoiled. When hardships comes around, we wouldn't know how to react and, thus, become vulnerable when things make the turn for the worst.

[shooraijin]

The concept of social justice (and by extension liberation theology) is getting close to the politics frontier. They've been mentioned here and dispensed with; let's remain on the primary subject.