Why do some christians treat homosexuals badly and is it a sin?

[TGJesusfreak]

I was just thinking about stuff lately... I personally beleive that homoesxuality is a sin and all that. but I do NOT think that the people involved in it are bad or any worse than me.

because honestly, according to the bibleall sins are equal to God right?

So if it's a sin and we ridicule homosexuals and think them evil and terrible, then I guess we should treat liars and guttonous people the same way right? (/sarcasm)

I guess what I am saying is hat I think that I find it horrible that there is a group of christian out there in the world who treat one sin like it is 1000 times worse than any other.

Like my mom always says:
"hate the sin love the person"





But before the debate starts (and I know it will) Here are the verses that make me beleive that homosexuality is a sin:

Lev. 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." (the sin is the abomination not the person.)

Rom. 1:26-28:
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

Homosexuality is clearly condemned by the Bible. It goes against the created order of God. He created Adam and then made a woman. This is what God has ordained and it is what is right.

Homosexuality has a judgment administered by God Himself. This judgment is simple: They are given over to their passions. That means that their hearts are allowed to be hardened by their sins (Romans 1:18). As a result, they can no longer see the error of what they are doing.

In other words they are not aware that it is a sin, because there hearts have been given over and cannot see the err. But that does NOT mean that they are worse people. They need love, true love, MORE than anyone else.

They really only need love. condemning them will not help them at all. They need us as christians to EMBRACE them and love them for real. and that isnt what a lot of christians have been doing unfortunatly.





okays, that's it. Let the debate begin and PLEASE keep it nice people ^^;;

Mods: if this thread seems to get a bit out of hand please close it immdiatly I dont want any bashing of homosexuals or anything >.>;;;

[Nate]

This thread won't end well.

So to answer your question:

1. Because it's human nature to treat those who are different in some way badly.

2. No.

[Cognitive Gear]

They really only need love. condemning them will not help them at all. They need us as christians to EMBRACE them and love them for real. and that isnt what a lot of christians have been doing unfortunatly.

This is pretty accurate. Honestly, after doing some research on both sides, I have no idea if it is a sin or not. However, as far as my life is concerned, it's not something I have to worry about anyways. Regardless of if it is or isn't, I should be treating them the same way.

[TGJesusfreak]

Because it's human nature to treat those who are different in some way badly.

I know you're right about that Nate.... but I just dont understand it y'know? Maybe I am just ignorant... but I dont understand the malice someone can have in their heart for someone. It's the same thing with racism. I just dont understand WHY someone could hate that person.



Just cause I think something is a sin doesnt mean you have to hate the person who may be sinning. heck, my mom works with a person who is homosexual but she is still realy sweet and kind! Homosexuallity should not define you y'know?

and to those who dont think homosexuallity is a sin. I want you to know that that's fine. We still agree. Bottom line, sin or not, treating someone who is different like that with disrespect and hatred is wrong. right? I think all of CAA can unite on this.

This is pretty accurate. Honestly, after doing some research on both sides, I have no idea if it is a sin or not. However, as far as my life is concerned, it's not something I have to worry about anyways. Regardless of if it is or isn't, I should be treating them the same way.

*underlined for emphasis*

Exactly. Heck, I could be friends with a homosexuall if I wanted to. Even if we dont agree why should that stop us right?

[Radical Dreamer]

This is pretty accurate. Honestly, after doing some research on both sides, I have no idea if it is a sin or not. However, as far as my life is concerned, it's not something I have to worry about anyways. Regardless of if it is or isn't, I should be treating them the same way.

This is more or less my opinion on the matter at the moment. Also, here's a really good article on the subject by Philip Yancey:
<link snipped for because of potential spyware issue>

Either way, I strongly believe that regardless of what a person has done or is doing, you should still love them as you would anyone else, because their sin is no greater than yours or mine. Also, Important Mod Notice, this is not a thread about politics, and it's not going to be a thread about politics. Keep that in mind, please.

[TGJesusfreak]

This is more or less my opinion on the matter at the moment. Also, here's a really good article on the subject by Philip Yancey:

http://www.philipyancey.com/q-and-a-topics/homosexuality

Either way, I strongly believe that regardless of what a person has done or is doing, you should still love them as you would anyone else, because their sin is no greater than yours or mine. Also, Important Mod Notice, this is not a thread about politics, and it's not going to be a thread about politics. Keep that in mind, please.

Yes ma'am. No politics.

And Yeah. I agree. like the bible says: "Who are you to judge?" their sins are no worse than mine. Love them like you'd love you sister or brother or friends. =)

[quote="Rad's link"]“]this is SOOOOOOOOOOO true! XD, I agree too! =D

[Atria35]

I think that it's human nature to treat others differently, but homosexuality is an easy sin to target (as far as it is a sin- I personally don't believe so, but this isn't the place for that discussion). It's far more visible to others- you can hide adultery and others for years. Homosexuality... not as much in this day and age, even though it can still be done.

It's also so far out of the norm of sins that are encountered that it hits harder. Most people know a lot of people who are alchoholics/have sex outside of marriage/have committed adultery or looked at porn. But how many do you know are homosexual?

But I will definitely say that I agree with you- all sinners should be embraced with the love Jesus would have given.

[Nate]

I know you're right about that Nate.... but I just dont understand it y'know? Maybe I am just ignorant... but I dont understand the malice someone can have in their heart for someone. It's the same thing with racism. I just dont understand WHY someone could hate that person.

To understand it you have to look into evolutionary theory. Before humans created societies, it was every man for himself. Everyone else was an enemy because they wanted your food or your woman or your cave.

And this stayed with humans even after societies formed. But, there were other societies out there who wanted your gold, your land, your women. You needed a way to identify these outsiders who wanted to take your stuff. You could do so by them speaking another language, their skin color, the way they dressed. Since there would be some level of homogenization in a society, then anyone who didn't fit that mold would be "not part of us." And so they were probably an enemy.

Even in a country like the United States where we have people of many races and backgrounds, some people believe there is a "real" America where people look, talk, and act a certain way, and anyone who doesn't fit those criteria is an enemy trying to destroy our way of life or harm us.

There's other angles too, such as blacks being viewed as "subhuman" or "inferior" especially in the early years of the US. In that case it wasn't because they were viewed as an enemy, but because (for various reasons) Africa had not grown much in the way of technology over the course of human history. And by that I don't mean like, y'know, computers or anything. I mean like Europe had grand palaces carved of marble and stone and stunning cathedrals...and Africa, not so much. So they were seen as primitive and unintelligent, no better than animals. And so there was born another motivation for racism right there.

Racism, sexism, bigotry...they're all pretty complex, and I've simplified things massively, and maybe even incorrectly. I'm no sociologist or anthropologist, so I'm working with the limited knowledge I have. There's far more to it than that, but that should give you an idea of some of the reasonings behind the stuff.

Just cause I think something is a sin doesnt mean you have to hate the person who may be sinning. heck, my mom works with a person who is homosexual but she is still realy sweet and kind!

Okay, fair enough. But it is my duty to remind you that most LGBs find the term "homosexual" to be insulting and offensive. If you really wish to love them and treat them kindly and decently, then I would ask you not refer to them with a derogatory term. They're lesbians, gays, bisexuals, or pansexuals.

Some of them don't mind if you call them "homosexuals" but many do. And again, if you really agree they should be treated kindly and with love, then you should probably stop doing things they find insulting. Just a word of advice.

Bottom line, sin or not, treating someone who is different like that with disrespect and hatred is wrong. right? I think all of CAA can unite on this.

I don't think all of CAA can unite on this, no. I'd give my reasons but Corrie has already stepped in and said "This will not get political," so I can't give my reasons. But I can guarantee that no, we can't all unite on this, and that the people who think it's a sin will say "Oh yeah we'll treat them with love and respect because that's the right thing to do!" but act in ways that completely contradict that, ways that are filled with hate and malice.

It's sad to me, but I can't do anything about it.

[TopazRaven]

I have to agree with what most everyone before me posted. Wither you believe it is a sin or not, LGBTs are still people and have feelings. Treat your neighbor as you yourself would like to be treated.

[Davidizer13]

It's also so far out of the norm of sins that are encountered that it hits harder. Most people know a lot of people who are alchoholics/have sex outside of marriage/have committed adultery or looked at porn. But how many do you know are homosexual?

Part of that would be selection bias: people who consider homosexuality a sin will choose to avoid people who practice it. It goes back to what people were saying earlier about xenophobia - hating things and people who are different from them, because they are different.

Now, I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but so is my heterosexual lust, the grudges and hatred I've held against people, and the many times I've failed to show Christ's love to the people around me, and all these are are (at least) equal to homosexuality. So no matter what I might tell myself, I am no better than someone who's living that way. However, our failure as Christians to realize this have led to this break between Christians and gays that we see now, leading to us having this discussion.

The documentary Lord, Save Us From Your Followers deals with the break, asking where it came from, and eventually leading to the Christian director building a confession booth at a LGBT pride festival and apologizing to the people there for the things we've done and the love we've failed to show. The movie glosses over a few points, and it's not really an in-depth analysis of the issue, but it's meant more as a starting point for discussion and a wake-up call for people to start expressing the love we should be showing, and does well at that.

[Htom Sirveaux]

First off, I never had any idea that the term "homosexual" was offensive now. I can't imagine why, but whatever. It's their word more than mine, anyways.

So, then. There's a guy on my worship team who I'm fairly certain is gay. I mean, he doesn't go mincing around, talking about attractive men, but he sets off the gaydar, all right. I personally see homosexuality (oh, er, gayness, sorry) as a sin, but I still welcome him on the team, as do the other members. Just because someone lives in sin doesn't mean they don't have the right to worship. Heaven knows, I'm a sinner too. In fact, we worship because even though we can't help making sin a part of our everyday lives, God still loves us. Christ died for gays, junkies, lust addicts and everything in between.

[wildpurplechild]

This topic is very close to my heart becuase one of my close friends has recently told me that she is now transgender. I feel it is wrong and she knew that when she told me. She asked if I didn't want to be her friend anymore and I guess she thought I'd hate her for it or something because I am a Christian. I told her that it's because I am a Christian that I wouldn't give up friendship because of something like that. Jesus hung out with people everyone called sinners. Prostitutes, tax collectors, and other people that were not considered 'good people'. Jesus loved them unconditionally no matter what. This is how he loves us all. We are all equal under God and we all have sinned. Even though I disagree with my friend, what she really needs to see from me is love, and in being a loving friend I hope she can see God's love.

Oh, I also have seen God Save Us from Your Followers and I highly recomend it. It was very thought provoking and gives good perspective on how the world view Christians and how they view God and how those views can bwe verry different.

[Dante]

EDIT: That came off a bit harsh, but I just want to say that I think this isn't the best of topics because it touches on a political issue (even though it's also a religious one) and it's more likely to hurt then to give any new revealing perspectives.

[Midori]

It has been said many times, and it needs to be said more. Believing someone is making the wrong choice is entirely different from disrespecting them. This has relevance not only to the issue at hand, but also to all areas of our forum, especially when it comes to theological discussions.

DO NOT ASSUME THAT SOMEONE WHO THINKS YOU ARE WRONG HATES YOU. Also try not to tempt people into hating you by how you express your beliefs, especially when you are saying you think someone is wrong.

Thank you.



Now, more to the actual topic of the thread:

http://www.philipyancey.com/q-and-a-topics/homosexuality

This is an excellent article and one that I think every Christian who is opposed to homosexuality (or even for it) should read before tackling this issue.

Okay, fair enough. But it is my duty to remind you that most LGBs find the term "homosexual" to be insulting and offensive. If you really wish to love them and treat them kindly and decently, then I would ask you not refer to them with a derogatory term. They're lesbians, gays, bisexuals, or pansexuals.

Really? I was under the impression that homosexual was a more polite word than gay, since gay is sometimes used as an insult. I suppose I'll trust you on this though, and attempt to amend my vocabulary.

Also, without going into detail, I want to say that my opposition to homosexuality (excuse the term, I found no other that grammatically fits here) has more of a biological and psychological basis than a religious one.

[goldenspines]

I agree with Nate's view on the first question, so I won't cover that in this post.

To echo what most people have been saying, whether homosexuality is a sin or not is not really what matters. I don't think we should be treating people any different whether we know for sure if they are sinning or not because everyone is sinful (no sin is "worse" than the rest, I think. Sin is sin). We're not called to be judges of people's hearts, but rather to love everyone, even if they are our enemy (or even someone who just makes us upset).

And going off a bit of Midori said, there can be a lot of confusion when it comes to hating a sin over hating a person. I personally think they are two different things, but the lines tend to get fuzzy when topics close to the heart comes up (for the hater and the hatee, or even the innocent bystander) and that's why issues like this come up. More so online since one's exact feelings on a topic cannot be expressed very well in only text.

[Midori]

Good post Goldy. I think this thread might have been good for CAA, not as an actual in-depth discussion on whether homosexuality is okay (that would almost certainly end up being locked), but as a reaffirmation of our belief that respect is the most important thing when talking to someone you disagree with. If we want to even begin to talk about things like this we need to take mutual respect as an axiom.

[Nate]

Since Htom and Midori have mentioned it, I'll explain why. The reason why "homosexual" has become a derogatory term is for many reasons. One, is because for a long time homosexuality was listed as a mental illness. Two, "homosexual" places too much emphasis on sex, and some feel it makes them feel like their sexuality is the only thing that defines them or that it portrays them as only caring about sex. The terms gay and lesbian don't mention sex particularly, just their preference in people they like to date. Three, many feel it singles them out and by itself creates a climate of bigotry because straight people don't constantly call themselves "heterosexuals" so why should they be called "homosexuals"?

However you'd have to ask an actual LGBT person how they feel about the term. Like I said, some are okay with the term "homosexual," most seem to not be. I mean think about it. Is it called "Homosexual rights" or "gay rights?" The fact that they call it "gay rights" or "LGBT rights" implies a pretty clear preference for that as opposed to "homosexual."

More info here: http://www.avert.org/homosexual.htm

[Midori]

Actually I have almost always referred to myself as heterosexual at times like these. If I am calling gays gays should I call myself straight?

[fermy6]

I might as well say it......im gay(no joking im 100% serious)

[Midori]

I might as well say it......im gay(no joking im 100% serious)

And I still respect you.

Man that was easy. Why can't more people respect people that way?

[Yamamaya]

As someone who has many gay relatives, this is a topic that tends to resonate with me. I know quite a few homophobic people(some of them in my own family) who will downright refuse to be around any homosexuals. They won't let their children around them for fear that they will "influence" them. Yet, they will let their kids be around people who have been known to drink a little too much and have extramarital affairs.

To be quite frank, people treat them badly because it's an easy "fault" to point at. It's easy to say, "Look at that wicked alcoholic. He's evil" when you have never been an alcoholic. There's no fingers pointing back at you. However, when you condemn heterosexual lust, often you are condeming yourself since everyone has lusted at one point or another. It's easier to condemn homosexuality because it's that "one sin" that only "they" have committed.

The question we need to ask is, "Would Jesus be cruel to gays?" We know from his history that he often found his best friends and followers amidst those considered the worst of sinners in his society and he condemned those that considered themselves righteous.

[ShiroiHikari]

I might as well say it......im gay(no joking im 100% serious)

Okay.

[fermy6]

well now I can thank the Lord for letting it be so easy...

[Ella Edric]

I might as well say it......im gay(no joking im 100% serious)

I respect you as well.

[Nate]

That probably took a lot of courage and strength, fermy. I'm proud of you. :3

[fermy6]

Awwww u guys are awsome (tears of joy)

[LadyRushia]

My best friend identifies as a pansexual and she's a Christian. I only know a little bit about her struggle with that, but the more I learn about the LGBT community, the more I realize that I don't understand them. In my mind, I can't disagree with or oppose something I don't fully understand. I've never had the struggles they've had, so I feel it isn't my place to tell them they're wrong or even disagree with them. As far as I'm concerned, I'll just sit and listen to them tell me about their life experiences. Sexuality is extremely complicated and not as cut and dry for some people as it is for others. It's something that can only be worked out between an individual and God.

Sure, a lot of things about LGBT folks make me uncomfortable. Seeing two girls together and knowing my roommate/best friend is also attracted to girls (although a very, very, very specific type) makes me feel weird sometimes (in b4 "she has a crush on you!" I'm not her type. She's told me so, XD), but none of that changes the fact that she's my best friend and the closest friend I've had since high school. I know that she's brought this to God. I know that she struggled with it in context of her Christianity. I don't know all of the details and I won't know them unless she chooses to tell me. That's perfectly okay with me. I thank God that I was not given the position, power, or authority to judge her or anyone else because I know that would be too much pressure on me.

Things really change when you have a very close friend who's part of the LGBT community. I wouldn't exchange my best friend for any other best friend in the world, but her experiences have given me a different perspective. I feel that as far as I'm concerned, God has told me to simply be a friend just like I would be a friend to anyone else.

/two cents.

[Ella Edric]

Ill make my opinion short and sweet. It doesn't matter if you disagree with the behavior of another, you should still be kind and Christ-like to those around you. Whether they be gay, alchoholic, a communist or w/e. You should still treat everyone with kindness. "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." Although I do not agree with it I can still respect it and love others who are like that.

[TGJesusfreak]

I might as well say it......im gay(no joking im 100% serious)

That probably took a lot of courage and strength, fermy. I'm proud of you. :3

Hey Fermy. I still love you and respect you completely. =D Nate is right. that must have taken a lot of strength.

This is what I am talking about. We as christians (even if we think it as a sin) should love and respect gays and lesbians (<---that's for you nate =3). I can honestly say Fermy that my opinion has not changed one bit about you. Youre still the same fermy. and I still love and respect you.

just to make a public statment]Ill make my opinion short and sweet. It doesn't matter if you disagree with the behavior of another, you should still be kind and Christ-like to those around you. Whether they be gay, alchoholic, a communist or w/e. You should still treat everyone with kindness. "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." Although I do not agree with it I can still respect it and love others who are like that.[/QUOTE] Exactly this. =D
R-E-S-P-E-C-T --- learn the word! XD and then apply it.

[KougaHane]

I haven't read every single post here so pardon if I say something someone else already said.

Being gay is just another sin to me. Why is it that people who are promiscuous alchoholics are treated better than gays? I believe that in God's eyes (which I don't calim to know, of course, but this makes the most sense to me) all sins are equal. Sin is sin. I'm no worse than any homosexual. No homosexual is any worse than me, for that matter, we're not supposed to worry about "who's worse", we're supposed to worry about who has a realtionship with Jesus and who doesn't.