The Day Of Judgement

[MxCake]

i know how that is. D:

[Peanut]

In most cases, the churchgoer that believes that every person who isn't consistently attending a church has fallen into sin isn't going to listen to what he has to say at all anyways, since that is usually one of a litany of other rules centered around making everyone look, talk, think, and act the same. If you don't follow ALL of them you'll have no chance of influencing anyone, since you're 'out of the will of God', and if you do, there will be no room to try to push change since the way the places are structured are usually against any change of procedure unless it's put in place directly by the pastor.

I'm not sure I'd say in most cases even and I really wouldn't tie this to purely an extreme level of conservatism like what you described. Its been my experience that people who are ignorant to the idea that you can have Christian fellowship without being a part of a church are going to make a snap judgment call that your spiritual life is in shambles if you tell them you are a Christian and you aren't currently attending Church each Sunday. From that point, I can see how someone would think it would be reasonable to be wary of any spiritual advice coming from that individual. Obviously we can critique that point all we want but I think most people would agree that they don't like people to tell them to do something when that person isn't already doing it themselves. As for the whole pastor thing...that's not really true. There are plenty of evangelical churches that have systems in place where elder boards comprised of laity have to clear major decisions before they can be implemented. My home church would technically be considered one. Even in higher levels of structure, laity still do hold a good bit of power just by whether they attend or not. If a denomination ignores those figures as well as the response of their laity in general then they probably won't be in existence for too long.

For reference, I personally hopped churches for years with periods of refusal to attend when I didn't have transportation, time or energy to go looking for a new one. I'm currently at a mainline church, and would prefer to stay that way if I can help it, but I had the advantage of living in an area with a church on nearly every corner in a metropolis. People in more rural areas will not have the choice that I had, and I can see eventually pulling away entirely as a valid choice if there isn't a church that they can exist in within an acceptable distance.

I don't think we're thinking on the same wave length here mech. I'm not trying to imply that if it is impossible to find a church that someone can't exist in within an acceptable distance then they need to look harder. I'm trying to say that if you have pulled away from the church you were attending and aren't at least in fellowship with other believers and looking (or have looked) for a new church, then you need to change that. I'm mostly leveling a critique against complacency in regards to finding fellowship after an individual has been hurt.

[TopazRaven]

In all honesty I think finding a good church is going to be the best choice for me because I don't really have any friends that are believers. The most any of them will really say on the matter is, "I believe in God and Jesus." I also have the problem that I don't think I know how to properly worship or talk about God and maybe church can help that. However, I'm very shy, so when I go this Sunday the chances of talking to any person if they don't speak to me first is unlikely. I hardly can remember what you even do once you get there. You just walk in before the service begins and take a seat I'm guessing and then go from there? Yeah...CAA is pretty much my only source of conversation with other Christians at the moment.

[Furen]

I also have the problem that I don't think I know how to properly worship or talk about God and maybe church can help that.

Most churches try to help break that mindset of, "I'm not able to, I don't know what to say..." because that thought is not correct, to be biblical about it:

[b]"I will proclaim the name of the LORD]

I see that passage as a way to know that we should boldly proclaim our God, to not have fear, to know that we tried, and we obey. I am very willing to try to talk to you about this and help you feel better, we could do a group study!

[Azier the Swordsman]

The only reason I attend my church is I have a lot of friends at my home church and I want to hold onto the relationships I have with these people as long as I live here.

Otherwise I would probably not attend church at all. I just don't fit in well with other Christians. I'm very anti fundamentalist. I feel that there is too high a degree of legalism within the church and not enough love. I feel that the pulpit too often gets turned into a soapbox for the individual opinions of the pastors.

After not understanding why a lot of people in the church would act like I was super intelligent during bible studies, I eventually came to figure out that I'm apparently in a small minority of Christians who have actually read the Bible cover to cover, read between the lines, and thought carefully about everything. This is disturbing to me.

A lot of Christians tend to base their entire belief systems off what they have been taught in church, or worse, in the Christian media, and don't bother checking out their beliefs for themselves.

I am not a Christian because I was raised a Christian. I am not a Christian because somebody told me, "Believe this!" and I said, "Yes, sir!" I didn't.

I went through a long period of agnosticism in my life with a lot of deep soul searching into a bunch of different religions and belief systems before I came to my conclusions as a Christian. Most Christians can't make this claim, and believe whatever they are taught by whoever they are taught by, and don't bother to question it. This really bugs me.

If the church were to stop using itself to promote the belief systems of the individuals and instead spent more time trying to understand and love others, then I would be more inclined to take a more active part in it.

'Cause, you know, nothing says The Love Of Christ like an organization that has effectively turned it into one less source that a number of teens committing suicide could have turned to for help, simply because of their sexual orientation, or decides that proclaiming the "evils" of Harry Potter is more important than preaching about, well, the love of Christ.

[RefractedAhav]

Jesus said that we would know the season, we may even be able to pin point the time of year if you believe that all the ancient Hebrew feast and fast where symbolic of different points in the ministry of Christ but topazraven was right in the third post in this thread, we can not know the precise day or hour it will happen. I'm not sure a specific year can even be pointed to with absolute certainty, at least not until we are close (and by close I mean almost there).

[TopazRaven]

The only reason I attend my church is I have a lot of friends at my home church and I want to hold onto the relationships I have with these people as long as I live here.

Otherwise I would probably not attend church at all. I just don't fit in well with other Christians. I'm very anti fundamentalist. I feel that there is too high a degree of legalism within the church and not enough love. I feel that the pulpit too often gets turned into a soapbox for the individual opinions of the pastors.

After not understanding why a lot of people in the church would act like I was super intelligent during bible studies, I eventually came to figure out that I'm apparently in a small minority of Christians who have actually read the Bible cover to cover, read between the lines, and thought carefully about everything. This is disturbing to me.

A lot of Christians tend to base their entire belief systems off what they have been taught in church, or worse, in the Christian media, and don't bother checking out their beliefs for themselves.

I am not a Christian because I was raised a Christian. I am not a Christian because somebody told me, "Believe this!" and I said, "Yes, sir!" I didn't.

I went through a long period of agnosticism in my life with a lot of deep soul searching into a bunch of different religions and belief systems before I came to my conclusions as a Christian. Most Christians can't make this claim, and believe whatever they are taught by whoever they are taught by, and don't bother to question it. This really bugs me.

If the church were to stop using itself to promote the belief systems of the individuals and instead spent more time trying to understand and love others, then I would be more inclined to take a more active part in it.

'Cause, you know, nothing says The Love Of Christ like an organization that has effectively turned it into one less source that a number of teens committing suicide could have turned to for help, simply because of their sexual orientation, or decides that proclaiming the "evils" of Harry Potter is more important than preaching about, well, the love of Christ.

I have to say, I agee with you on a lot. I may not have looked into other religions, but I did step farther away from God then was needed for a very long time. I'm just starting to read the bible from cover to cover for the first time now in my 21 years of life! I only used to go to church because I thought it was what I had to do and I hardly ever paid attention. For some reason my Sunday school teacher seemed to enjoy picking on me to. She'd always pick me out from everyone else, especially if I didn't know what to say or the answer to a certain question and goodness me if I had a different belief from her... One thing I remember in particuler was when American soldiers where first sent to Afghanistan. Some other kids in the class said we should just blow the whole country up. To put it simply, I objected. A whole race shouldn't be murdered because of what some people did. The teacher practically bit my head off. So the kids saying it's alright to destroy an entire nation was alright? That was honestly one of the things that turned me off church.

Edit: Meanwhile, I don't bring this up to start a political debate just so everyone knows. Just making my point. xD

[CrimsonRyu17]

After not understanding why a lot of people in the church would act like I was super intelligent during bible studies, I eventually came to figure out that I'm apparently in a small minority of Christians who have actually read the Bible cover to cover, read between the lines, and thought carefully about everything. This is disturbing to me.

A lot of Christians tend to base their entire belief systems off what they have been taught in church, or worse, in the Christian media, and don't bother checking out their beliefs for themselves.

I am not a Christian because I was raised a Christian. I am not a Christian because somebody told me, "Believe this!" and I said, "Yes, sir!" I didn't.

I'm just gunna drop in here and remind you that most Christians in America are indoctrinated at a young age. A lot of people are raised as a Christian. They don't choose what they believe in. They are told "this is the way things are" and not to question the Bible because then they would be "falling away". Do you see what I'm getting at? The reason they don't question their beliefs is because they're taught not to. I don't think any logical and/or mature human being would respond with a "Yes, sir!" if told to "Believe this!" without any good reason. Children, on the other hand, when told by their parents will believe.

And it is oh so very difficult to escape from such mindsets.

[Peanut]

I'm just gunna drop in here and remind you that most Christians in America are indoctrinated at a young age. A lot of people are raised as a Christian. They don't choose what they believe in. They are told "this is the way things are" and not to question the Bible because then they would be "falling away". Do you see what I'm getting at? The reason they don't question their beliefs is because they're taught not to. I don't think any logical and/or mature human being would respond with a "Yes, sir!" if told to "Believe this!" without any good reason. Children, on the other hand, when told by their parents will believe.

And it is oh so very difficult to escape from such mindsets.

This. It should also probably be mentioned that in general, our education system is sort of a form of brain washing in which we instill certain values within kids that they accept blindly. For instance, the idea that 2+2 always equals 4. All people, in general, don't investigate everything they've been taught, believe, etc. If someone has then congratulations, you're probably more informed then anyone who has ever lived (and possibly have no life). So, really the only thing the Church can be blamed for is not having a point where it gives people the tools to investigate the beliefs they've been taught. But even here, the Church kind of does. It's just most people don't want to take a class in Hermeneutics or go to a Christian University that does a good job teaching about the Bible and Theology.

[Azier the Swordsman]

I'm just gunna drop in here and remind you that most Christians in America are indoctrinated at a young age. A lot of people are raised as a Christian. They don't choose what they believe in. They are told "this is the way things are" and not to question the Bible because then they would be "falling away". Do you see what I'm getting at? The reason they don't question their beliefs is because they're taught not to. I don't think any logical and/or mature human being would respond with a "Yes, sir!" if told to "Believe this!" without any good reason. Children, on the other hand, when told by their parents will believe.

And it is oh so very difficult to escape from such mindsets.

I'm quite familiar with this, and this is one of the major charges I have against the church. Let me put it this way; at age seven I was fully convinced that if I didn't read my Bible and pray enough that Jesus was going to back and take everyone away but me and and my family members who also didn't read their Bibles and pray as much as they should and they were going to hunt me down and have my head chopped off. I wish I were fricking joking. I went through most of my life pushing God away from me because I was simply convinced that I was too dirty for God to look upon and I would never stand a chance in the world to be able to get close to him. It took God years of direct intervention to remove the toxic worldview that fundamentalism had poisoned me with and to reveal to me just how skewered my worldview was. I had also been pushed, in my desperation, to reading into a bunch of atheist and new age literature, to the point where I go so confused, and I nearly completely discarded my Christianity and never looked back. I was one of those kids that was indoctrinated from a young age, and it nearly pushed me away from God and Jesus Christ and I greatly resent that.

[CrimsonRyu17]

This. It should also probably be mentioned that in general, our education system is sort of a form of brain washing in which we instill certain values within kids that they accept blindly. For instance, the idea that 2+2 always equals 4.

Children are taught Basic Math skills not Algebra or complex equations. They're not being brainwashed into believing that 2 + 2 equals 4, they are being taught and shown, usually with a picture of a barrel of apples, that 2 + 2 equals 4 in Basic Math.

So, really the only thing the Church can be blamed for is not having a point where it gives people the tools to investigate the beliefs they've been taught. But even here, the Church kind of does. It's just most people don't want to take a class in Hermeneutics or go to a Christian University that does a good job teaching about the Bible and Theology.

Oh the Church can be blamed for so much more than just that but that's another discussion. You seemed to have also missed my point in my last post that the Church teaches against questioning your beliefs. If any system resembles brain washing, it would be the Church.

You're also assuming that Christans don't go to a Christian Univeristy just because they don't want to. Most people can't afford to.

[blkmage]

Why should people have to take a class at a university to be able to read the Bible correctly? I mean, yeah if you want to go super in-depth at a professional level, then that's fine, but I think churches should be responsible for teaching the basics of hermeneutics and exegesis and other basic interpretative skills. Like, I don't understand how people think they can read it without understanding even basic things like context. If the church isn't teaching you how to read your Bible, that's a failure on the church's part, not because of any lack of interest on the part of the believer.

Every church that I've stuck around with has stressed the importance of thinking critically about our beliefs as an important way of spiritual growth and they've given me the tools to do that. Maybe it's because I've been extremely lucky in finding churches, but I'm a bit surprised to hear that things are in such a dire state in the US.

[Rusty Claymore]

Everytime I look at this thread it's about something different. n.n
That's a good thing though.

[Cognitive Gear]

Every church that I've stuck around with has stressed the importance of thinking critically about our beliefs as an important way of spiritual growth and they've given me the tools to do that. Maybe it's because I've been extremely lucky in finding churches, but I'm a bit surprised to hear that things are in such a dire state in the US.

If I start the process now, how long will it take for me to become a citizen of Canada?

[ShiroiHikari]

Oh the Church can be blamed for so much more than just that but that's another discussion. You seemed to have also missed my point in my last post that the Church teaches against questioning your beliefs. If any system resembles brain washing, it would be the Church.

I think Crimmy hit it on the head here. What better way to brainwash children than to make them believe that if they don't believe in Jesus then they're going to hell and lots of other bad things will happen to them? Not all kids buy into this stuff, but many do because they hear it from people they trust. This is hardly showing our children the love of Jesus Christ.

You're also assuming that Christans don't go to a Christian Univeristy just because they don't want to. Most people can't afford to.

I don't know about anyone else but I sure as hell wouldn't want to go to a Christian university for many reasons, which I will not get into here.

Why should people have to take a class at a university to be able to read the Bible correctly? I mean, yeah if you want to go super in-depth at a professional level, then that's fine, but I think churches should be responsible for teaching the basics of hermeneutics and exegesis and other basic interpretative skills. Like, I don't understand how people think they can read it without understanding even basic things like context. If the church isn't teaching you how to read your Bible, that's a failure on the church's part, not because of any lack of interest on the part of the believer.

Quoted for emphasis.

[Nate]

I don't understand how people think they can read it without understanding even basic things like context.

Because if they used context, they wouldn't be able to misinterpret verses to fit their personal beliefs and then try and shame and scare everyone into believing like them.

I'm a bit surprised to hear that things are in such a dire state in the US.

Apparently my problem is that I live in the wrong country. Canada keeps sounding like the superior country to live in every time I hear about it.

[Radical Dreamer]

Just dropping in to suggest that we don't bash the church--the people within it who have hurt us in the past are still our brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't think there's anything wrong with pinpointing some of the problems that have come up in it in the past, but we need to make sure we aren't confusing an honest critique (and a genuine hope to change the problems that the modern church has) with flat-out bashing. The Body of Christ shouldn't hate itself.

[Nate]

I could respond to that but it really isn't worth it so I guess I'll just shut up.

[Cognitive Gear]

I think that it is worthwhile to note that churches aren't the same all across the US, or even across the same state. This probably will have an impact on how each of us thinks about these things.

I know that for me, the large majority of the churches around here have either been founded by or heavily impacted by the rampant success of the particular megachurch I grew up in. This has caused me to have great difficulty in finding a church that doesn't have the same issues as the church that I left. For awhile I had thought that this was just the state of the American church as a whole, but as I've continued my search I found that it was just a matter of getting far enough away to escape the geopolitical influence of that particular megachurch.

[CrimsonRyu17]

Oh, don't confuse me with being part of the so-called body. I've long-since amputated myself from it.

I will, however, pinpoint problems that are still occuring so that either something will be done or, for the much more likely, so that the problem will be made known. Maybe I'm a bit of a critic but I don't do so maliciously.

[Peanut]

Children are taught Basic Math skills not Algebra or complex equations. They're not being brainwashed into believing that 2 + 2 equals 4, they are being taught and shown, usually with a picture of a barrel of apples, that 2 + 2 equals 4 in Basic Math.

Oh the Church can be blamed for so much more than just that but that's another discussion. You seemed to have also missed my point in my last post that the Church teaches against questioning your beliefs. If any system resembles brain washing, it would be the Church.

This sounds awfully defensive especially given the fact that I was agreeing with you and then adding in my own thoughts.

Anyway, I'm still going to stand behind my idea that education is a form of brainwashing though my example does fail (I just kind of pulled it off of the top of my head). The reason is really until you get to college you really aren't allowed to question the teacher. There are exceptions but generally this seems to hold true. You really can't provide answers on tests or homework assignments where you completely disagree with what the teacher has taught. The kid that answers 2+2 can equal something else is going to probably be told that they are wrong and don't understand what is being taught. The thing is that really isn't always the case. It's no coincidence that the way we typically set up the seats in our churches and classrooms puts the teacher in an unchallengeable position of authority. Values are also taught in our schools like following certain rules of society and, as mentioned earlier, respect for authority. There is no room to question those values at all. You can say that is necessary and I would agree with you but I would still call it a form of brainwashing. Further there still are topics which are pushed in a way that I would call brainwashing. The way we teach about cosmology comes to mind.

You're also assuming that Christans don't go to a Christian Univeristy just because they don't want to. Most people can't afford to.

Good point, but isn't this more of a critique of all universities in general and not just Christian universities?

Why should people have to take a class at a university to be able to read the Bible correctly? I mean, yeah if you want to go super in-depth at a professional level, then that's fine, but I think churches should be responsible for teaching the basics of hermeneutics and exegesis and other basic interpretative skills. Like, I don't understand how people think they can read it without understanding even basic things like context. If the church isn't teaching you how to read your Bible, that's a failure on the church's part, not because of any lack of interest on the part of the believer.

I'm realizing that I wasn't really clear but this is pretty much what I was trying to say. I still have to give some credit to the church as an organization for opening up universities and colleges where such things are taught. With that being said, we should still be teaching the basics to the masses but generally we don't...well in America at least.

Just dropping in to suggest that we don't bash the church--the people within it who have hurt us in the past are still our brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't think there's anything wrong with pinpointing some of the problems that have come up in it in the past, but we need to make sure we aren't confusing an honest critique (and a genuine hope to change the problems that the modern church has) with flat-out bashing. The Body of Christ shouldn't hate itself.

Quoting this because its the sole reason I keep arguing this point and is a major part of the reason I'm going into ministry instead of becoming a Theology teacher.

[Midori]

From what I've heard, it's getting to be hard to find good churches in the US. I'm fortunate enough to have a really good church that encourages people to think about and challenge their faith. I realize not everyone is that fortunate. It's a little difficult not to take my church for granted, just like with the internet. It's hard for me and many other Christians to imagine what a bad church would be like, which I think contributes to the belief that "If you don't go to a church, you aren't a Christian". Since, if every church were as good as my church, then I couldn't really imagine anyone deciding to not go to any church unless they had extreme circumstances or a spiritual problem. I expect that much of the "You must go to church" crowd are not members of totalitarian churches as much as members of good, honest churches, who believe that all churches are good and honest.

[Peanut]

It's hard for me and many other Christians to imagine what a bad church would be like, which I think contributes to the belief that "If you don't go to a church, you aren't a Christian". Since, if every church were as good as my church, then I couldn't really imagine anyone deciding to not go to any church unless they had extreme circumstances or a spiritual problem. I expect that much of the "You must go to church" crowd are not members of totalitarian churches as much as members of good, honest churches, who believe that all churches are good and honest.

You bring up a really good point and the more I think about it, the more I think you are completely right about this. I would say that I, up until college where I was actually encouraged to think for myself, held this sort of viewpoint to a degree. Part of I think is that I never really had a bad experience in Church. Sure, there's been certain fundamentalist beliefs which have been taught to me that I've revolted against and have a general disliking for, but I can't really think of a moment where what I would consider to be my home Churches had ever really failed me. So the idea that someone couldn't find a good Church near them was very foreign to me and possibly still foreign to me.

[Rusty Claymore]

... can't find a good honest church? Then make it yourself. In all seriousness. Start a church. The first "churches" were what we would now call, "in home studies" anyway. Run around, grab some people, start studying the word and worshipping God. Paul outlines church blueprints in both Timothy and Titus, both structurally and conductiually, so all you need is there. Unless of course you don't believe in Biblical inerrancy. Then I can't say anything to help you, since I draw all my "theology" from the Bible anyway. Ganbatte.

[Peanut]

... can't find a good honest church? Then make it yourself. In all seriousness. Start a church. The first "churches" were what we would now call, "in home studies" anyway. Run around, grab some people, start studying the word and worshipping God. Paul outlines church blueprints in both Timothy and Titus, both structurally and conductiually, so all you need is there. Unless of course you don't believe in Biblical inerrancy. Then I can't say anything to help you, since I draw all my "theology" from the Bible anyway. Ganbatte.

Not a bad idea at all as long as it isn't taken as an encouragement to go into church planting (which gets pretty complex in the US). Though I would say that Biblical inerrancy has nothing to do with what you are referencing. You can believe that the Bible has errors and still view Paul's recommended church blueprints as being something that should be followed.

[Rusty Claymore]

Though I would say that Biblical inerrancy has nothing to do with what you are referencing.

▬_▬ Yeah, I couldn't find the right word for what I meant, so I took a jab. Mostly just trying to cover bases with that one, so disregaurd. n.n

[crusader88]

I sure hope not. If that should come to pass I'll probably never finish Naruto before the Lord separates the wheat from the chaff.

[TopazRaven]

Hm, well this topic has been on my mind for to long so I finally went and read Revelation last night even though I'm still in the beginning of the OT in my bible. It really quite terrified me. In all honesty I'm really curious to what everyone elses personal thoughts on the book of Revelation are. If you don't mind talking to an annoying person like me about this topic send me a PM please. xD I was thinking of just making a new thread or something...but I think that would be a bad idea as it would end up getting way to controversial. I've already got a bad rep for making controversial threads I would think. xD

[Davidizer13]

Someone has said that people make one of two mistakes with Revelation: some people make too much out of it, poring over it and trying to understand it in order to find out what's going to happen in the future, to the detriment of the rest of the Bible. Others ignore it completely - there are some Syrian Christian sects that say it's not part of the Bible. But really, both of these arguments come down to the fact that it's really, really hard to understand, written in a coded language that would have made more sense if we were living in those times. This was a deliberate choice on John's part, I believe - lots of symbols in there point towards the Roman Empire being this enemy of the Christians discussed in the book, and rightfully so at the time.

Personally, I tend towards thinking less of the book. There was a whole genre of stories similar to Revelation at the time, known as Jewish apocalypses. These books were, like Revelation, stories describing the end of the world, the sundry judgments that would take place, and the eventual salvation of God's people, written in symbolic language. It'd be like a romance novel: you expect certain elements in it, like the characters' meeting, falling in love, the troubles that prevent them from being together, and their eventual marriage. Revelation is covering the bases of that genre, and it might not be as unique as people claim it to be. It was written specifically to the churches it describes at the beginning of the book, like Paul's letters, and so it would have some special meaning to them that we're missing by not living in those times.

Still, despite these issues, and whether or not the events that occur in it are going to happen at the end times, Revelation is primarily a message of hope. Despite all the disasters, judgements, etc., that it talks about, God is ultimately in control and His will will win out in the end, no matter what may come.

[Atria35]

Out of necessity, what is the date format? is it DD/MM/YYYY or MM/DD/YYYY. I'm used to DD/MM/YYYY. It could potentially make me gravedig old threats.

I think on this site it's set up MM/DD/YYYY.