" wrote:RustyClaymore 11:27 - Ah yes, Socks is the single raindrop responsible for the flood. XD
Rusty Claymore wrote:(sorry, but a she wouldn't carry the messege to guys as well)
Because if it's messege is corrupt then Christians will speak out against it, not promote it.
Overall, though, there might just be too much division in the Christian ranks to let this work.
But then again, considering how many denominations of Christianity there are, some Christian, somewhere is going to think they got something wrong, no matter how well-researched the creators were.
Rusty Claymore (post: 1389194) wrote:(topic shift)And as some people are driving at, what alot of us would want from a C-anime is one that doesn't spend precious air time discussing Gaia or the Devonian peroid. Am I right?
Rusty Claymore (post: 1389194) wrote:@Nate: The he rather than she thing. As I could be categorized as macho-type guy, I would naturally have a hard time looking up to a female as a role model. If I walked up to you and said, "Man, I wish I was like Kagome from InuYasha." you would know I finally lost it.
As I could be categorized as macho-type guy, I would naturally have a hard time looking up to a female as a role model.
Rusty Claymore wrote:And as some people are driving at, what alot of us would want from a C-anime is one that doesn't spend precious air time discussing Gaia or the Devonian peroid. Am I right?
CrimsonRyu17 (post: 1388969) wrote:My main problem with "preachyness" is this. If a Buddhist came up to you and starting preaching about the greatness of his religion to you, a christian, would you sit there and listen through it?
I think it's better to preach the gospel in art forms the same way Christ did. Through parables. I want to see a Christian anime, not drowned in scripture or christian symbols, but one that actually tells a story and has value but still points to Christ.
My point is that it is not necessarily in moral philosophy where Christianity differs most from atheism and the major world religions but in metaphysics (what we believe about reality as a whole).
goldenspines (post: 1389236) wrote:Adding onto this point, even though it was made a page ago, would you buy something that preaches at you? I personally would not, whether it was preaching Christianity or otherwise. Most people wouldn't even watch it because it's not worth their time to be preached at when that's all they've heard for most of their lives (concerning any contact with Christianity they've had)
Though, it seems many of us in this thread are misunderstanding definitions of words or verses in the Bible (such as that one that some Christians and beyond use to promote anti-feminism. Instead of pursuing that issue, look at this verse and move on: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203:28-29&version=NIV)
Back on the previous topic, like someone mentioned before (it may have been Nate), there are so many denominations in the Christian religion, it would make your head spin and they all think they are "right" on the way they live their Christian lives. Obviously, we all are going to bump heads when it comes to what should be required as "Christian morals". Therefore, accept that some people can only eat vegetables and move on (referencing this chapter in Romans: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+14&version=NIV )
(note: If you have any discussion about the verses I linked to, please respond to me via PM, not in this thread)
That being said, let's steer this away from theological debate land and respect that we won't always see eye to eye.
TheSubtleDoctor wrote:I wholeheartedly disagree with the underlying assumption that "regular" anime is not also guilty of forcing certain world views onto its audience.
Another vibe I have picked up on is the desire for a Christian anime to affirm "Christian morals" as opposed to, say, Hindu, Buddhist, or atheist ones. I am a bit puzzled by this. What principles does anime (in general) advocate as moral goods that Christianity doesn't also?
anime I have seen tend to promote unselfishness, trust, loyalty and love. Such promotion seems to be a trait of all the major world religions as well as most individual atheists.
blkmage (post: 1389280) wrote:There is a severe lack of discussion about the purpose of such a creation, the target audience, and how to contextualize whatever you were doing for the appropriate culture of the target audience.
In a lot of anime aimed at our demographic, Nate, (and even shows targeting a younger audience), the reasons given for the value of love, friendship, teamwork, etc are considered important are because the characters in the show have chosen them to be important. A certain bond of friendship will be vitally significant to a character because that character has picked out that bond as something to anchor his life, to imbue it with meaning in a world devoid of the inherent meaning that religion and/or tradition give to it (because, as you put it, "we don't need 'em"). I find the above instance to be quite common in anime, but it is merely one instantiation of anime putting forth as preferable a specific worldview. I do not believe that just because this worldview is not a Christian one it is rubbish, far from it. There is a lot of value to studying it and much to learn.Nate (post: 1389281) wrote:I think there's a difference between upholding good values, and preaching a belief system that is almost wholly unknowable outside of a single book. We can look at the world and say "Man, all this crime and violence, people should just love each other and treat each other right." Having an anime that reinforces that is different from an anime that says "Hey, you have to believe in this carpenter who died 2,000 years ago or you're going to Hell! No, we can't prove Hell exists, just trust us on this one!"
I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but there is a very stark difference between an anime that talks a lot about love, friendship, teamwork, etc., and an anime that preaches a religion. They're not exactly the same.
Sure. I totally grant that and am in agreement. I do, however, believe that the notion that anime somehow does not promote a specific metaphysic, a particular way of looking at the world, is a flawed idea.I think, really, what most people are saying here is we don't want an anime where it's like Jack Chick tracts, where one person says "I sure do love Jesus!" and the other character goes "Jesus? Who's that?" and the first character starts preaching a sermon. That really is boring to be honest (not to mention poor writing).
Yes. This is exactly the sort of thing I was speaking about above. However, I don't think it is a statement about morals but one about metaphysics. I read it as a statement about the way things are, not how they should be: something like, "God doesn't exist and human beings are autonomous." The moral goods that anime often promotes, like love of family, kindness to others, the sanctity of life, cut across most of the major religions of the world and are principles upheld by many non-religious people.Well, one principle I can mention that won't start an argument is that many Japanese games/shows/anime have the message of "We don't need a god to tell us what to do, we control our own lives!" I trust I don't need to explain how that doesn't really work with Christianity.
I totally agree, sir. That is the point I was attempting to drive at by claiming that the moral principles that anime promotes, such as love, are Christian ones (as well as Buddhist ones, Islamist ones, etc.)And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Even without explicit mention of Christianity, a show that focused on the power of love and upheld it as good would be promoting Christian values/morals, because love is the greatest of all things in the universe, greater even than faith. Because if a person has a faith that can move mountains, but has no love, they are nothing.
I'm not sure if you are responding to me here, but I never advocated a "preachy" anime.It says a lot that before Jesus preached, he fulfilled the physical needs of people. Fed them, healed them, and so on. Jesus knew that you show love to someone first, THEN preach. Having an anime that starts out preachy is going to turn people off, sorry, that's just how human beings work.
I am quite sure I didn't imply that it was a bad thing. In fact, as my posts claim, I believe that anime does in fact promote these things. I went out of my way to state that I wasn't making a value judgment about the promotion of values in stories.So I don't see how promoting love and friendship even without mentioning Christianity is a bad thing. It can sow seeds. We can't make a seed grow, we can only plant it and take care of it, but it isn't us that makes it grow.
KhakiBlueSocks wrote:[SIZE="4"][color="RoyalBlue"][font="Trebuchet MS"]Plain and simple:
Give me a Christian anime that doesn't beat me over the head with it. That is, I don't need the main character to be praying every other scene, wearing a cross, or listening to gospel music on her iPod. Just instill basic morals, cut the GRATUITOUS fan service and swearing and there you go.[/font][/color][/SIZE]
Ina lot of anime aimed at our demographic, Nate, (and even shows targeting a younger audience), the reasons given for the value of love, friendship, teamwork, etc are considered important are because the characters in the show have chosen them to be important. A certain bond of friendship will be vitally significant to a character because that character has picked out that bond as something to anchor his life, to imbue it with meaning in a world devoid of the inherent meaning that religion and/or tradition give to it
I do, however, believe that the notion that anime somehow does not promote a specific metaphysic, a particular way of looking at the world, is a flawed idea.
However, I don't think it is a statement about morals but one about metaphysics. I read it as a statement about the way things are, not how they should be: something like, "God doesn't exist and human beings are autonomous."
You are right. Childrens' shows are a different kettle of fish, no doubt about it. But, when I said "younger audience" I didn't mean youngest audience . Sure, Sailor Moon teaches us that friendship is important. But, many times, when we encounter a show with even a little depth, a show that explores why these values are important, I believe that most of the answers that anime tends to offer are more in line with what I wrote earlier. I also believe that the philosophy that informs the selection of promoted values pervades the work more subtly than we realize.Nate (post: 1389338) wrote:In Sailor Moon, Super Sentai, Precure, all these shows, the theme is "No one can do anything on their own]other[/i] hand, Christianity is a religious belief that does address metaphysics. Things that can't be proven.
In other words, saying to you "Hey, I have a grandma who lives in Indiana" is a statement of fact, it isn't me trying to push my "worldview" on you. Saying "My grandma in Indiana is a voodoo priestess and if you don't do what I say she'll curse you" IS pushing something on you. Similarly, saying "Hey, friends are important and people should work together" isn't trying to push a "worldview," it's stating the basics of humanity that anyone can open their eyes and see. "Accept Christ and you'll go to Heaven" is not the same as that. Pretty basic.
You interpret this trope more literally than I do. I have always thought that this sort of thing symbolized overcoming a repressive, damaging and outdated myth (important: not my own thoughts!) in favor of the existentialist credo "Let's stand on our own two legs/feet!" So yeah, rather than actually committing deicide, I view such a trope as an attempt to say, "Hey! Let's clear away this old story. We don't need it! It is totally repressive...like some controlling jerk made it up!" The notion of God's actual existence doesn't come into play for me.Except in at least some anime/games/shows, that isn't true at all. In many of them, god DOES exist, but he's kind of a jerk and he toys with the lives of humans, so the humans get mad and decide they don't like god anymore and they're going to kick his butt, because "Mankind ill needs a savior such as you."
So Japanese works do have this notion that yeah god exists but he's just as mortal as anyone else (just really powerful) but you can still beat him. In this case, it does fall into the realm of "metaphysics" (because god DOES exist and he is really strong and has awesome powers) but mankind has said hey, god kinda sucks, so let's go kill him and live our own lives and control our own destinies because we don't need him. In fact, I think "Killing God" is probably a trope...lemme see. Yep, here we go
Bobtheduck (post: 1389424) wrote:Not preachy, but there and clear. Preachy is when it overtakes the story at unnatural times. Not preachy means it fits where it's put.
TheSubtleDoctor wrote:You are right. Childrens' shows are a different kettle of fish, no doubt about it. But, when I said "younger audience" I didn't mean youngest audience . Sure, Sailor Moon teaches us that friendship is important. But, many times, when we encounter a show with even a little depth, a show that explores why these values are important, I believe that most of the answers that anime tends to offer are more in line with what I wrote earlier.
A certain bond of friendship will be vitally significant to a character because that character has picked out that bond as something to anchor his life, to imbue it with meaning in a world devoid of the inherent meaning that religion and/or tradition give to it
I also believe that the philosophy that informs the selection of promoted values pervades the work more subtly than we realize.
I have always thought that this sort of thing symbolized overcoming a repressive, damaging and outdated myth (important: not my own thoughts!) in favor of the existentialist credo "Let's stand on our own two legs/feet!" So yeah, rather than actually committing deicide, I view such a trope as an attempt to say, "Hey! Let's clear away this old story. We don't need it! It is totally repressive...like some controlling jerk made it up!" The notion of God's actual existence doesn't come into play for me.
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