Something that is puzzling me

[rocklobster]

I was chatting with my cousin and discovered, to my sadness, that she has declared herself an atheist. Here's the real puzzle: She still reads the Bible. How can someone read the Bible and still ignore God's word? I'm suspecting she's heard all the negative stuff that has been spread around (yes, I know there is truth to it) and that may be why she's become an atheist.

[Warrior4Christ]

I know several atheists who have read chunks of the Bible. In fact, there are a few at work. They read it with a hard heart - that's how.
What's "all the negative stuff" she might have heard?

[K. Ayato]

I agree with W4C on this. It's quite possible she's still reading the Bible, but now with the motivation to prove that it isn't true.

[Dante]

Atheists can be very well read in the Bible. I've often encountered those that are better versed in Biblical knowledge then Christians. In particular though, an Atheist and a Christian will read scripture for two different reasons. Both will search for verses that support their world-view. The Christian to provide evidence for their faith and to build their understanding of God or as a support for their lives, the atheist to find what they perceive as absurd, contradictory or unjust. If they read the Bible to test the possibilities of faith, they are actually an agnostic and a very brave person at that!

While we understand the former, the latter is also important. To the atheist, understanding scripture is their way of building a wall to rebuff Christians. In particular, those that say that if only they read the holy scriptures they'd realize they were wrong. Or alternatively to prove a social statement that they are knowledgeable enough about Christianity to make their own decision whether or not to believe it. But in the end, it is nothing more then a means of providing support for their own world-view in a predominantly Christian nation - and hence an environment where they feel both vulnerable and isolated spiritually.

This is perhaps saddest of all, if they felt more inclusive in our societies' spiritual aspects and appreciated simply because of who they were without fear of being found out for their spiritual side, perhaps they'd live happier lives and be more open to considering God as a personal experiment. And that, the scientific spiritual experiment in their own lives, seems to be the most desired path for these individuals to Christ... But what am I saying, the path of personal experience of God is likely the path we all desire. But leads this topic too far astray. So there is my best "short answer".

By the way, the surest way to find out is to avoid spirituality and out-right ask her:
"I know you're an atheist and that you read the Bible, I know this is common, but I've never quite understood why. Could you possibly enlighten me as to why this is so common?"

Then, be prepared to listen, but you'll have to hold back on your own spirituality (lotsa will power there) and simply listen to the whole thing through. After all, if you're just judgmental, you'll chase her off, make her feel isolated from you and never find the answer out from her herself .

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Plenty of atheists/agnostics/a-dash-theists or whathaveyous are well-versed in scripture. Two friends of mine do not believe in a personal God (or any God for that matter) and are going into seminary for masters and doctoral work. They like the study of things like theology and sacred texts.

[rocklobster]

I know several atheists who have read chunks of the Bible. In fact, there are a few at work. They read it with a hard heart - that's how.
What's "all the negative stuff" she might have heard?

She has probably heard about how the Ten Commandments "limit our freedom". Never mind the fact that most societies have laws similar to them. She's also probably heard about all the atrocities that have been done in God's name: the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, etc. And of course, there's the famous "If God is love, why is there so much suffering?" schtick.

[Nikolai Melodie]

This will sound terrible, but, I probably spent more time reading the Bible before I converted. A lot of Nontheists are intelligent people, who want sources to back up their reason for not believing. They can use the same material that we would use to cement our beliefs, to cement their lack of belief. [Example: "Here on this page, it says this. I don't agree with this, and therefore, I cannot be a Christian." or, "This can't be applied to our times; my life; pie; therefore, it cannot be true."] Some are more malicious of course, like I was. I read it looking for fallacies and little discrepancies to try to disprove the book as a whole. ...Well, I'm still here on this site, so you can guess how that worked out for me.

I guess, reading the bible isn't even what this is about. It's what the book should invoke inside of a person. What your friend is reading, to her, is a book. It isn't the message that the rest of us believe and live by. Without belief, the bible really isn't much more than some words on paper. But if she still does read them, then there's still a part of her attached to those words. Wether it be scholarly, or a subconscious connection to faith... I don't know the girl, and I can't be one to judge. Ask her. Really, the best way to understand what's really going on there is to talk. Who knows. She may eventually come back to us.

[Nate]

She has probably heard about how the Ten Commandments "limit our freedom". Never mind the fact that most societies have laws similar to them.

No society has laws similar to the Ten Commandments. The only two that societies have as laws are don't murder and don't steal. Two out of ten does not qualify as similar.

Everyone else has explained it pretty well. It is a common saying that if you are in a battle, to know your enemy. This is why an atheist would read the Bible, to know the enemy and to counter theological debate.

Besides, how is an atheist reading the Bible any different from Christians reading the Koran or Hindu sutras so they can better argue against those? I've even heard of Christians reading say, Richard Dawkins' books so they can say "Here is where this guy is wrong." Why is an atheist reading the Bible so weird?

[Mithrandir]

No society has laws similar to the Ten Commandments. The only two that societies have as laws are don't murder and don't steal. Two out of ten does not qualify as similar.

I'm going to take exception to this. While your original point may have merit...

I've never heard of a society that thinks it's OK to lie under oath or "bear false testimony" before. Corruption may be rampant, but it's nearly always illegal.

There are also quite a few that make the breaking of a marriage oath punishable, "commit adultery."

Also, in quite a few countries in the world it is illegal to worship any good except the state, "have no other Gods before me."

[Rusty Claymore]

I belive most cultures are strict on honoring parents, too...

[Nate]

I've never heard of a society that thinks it's OK to lie under oath or "bear false testimony" before. Corruption may be rampant, but it's nearly always illegal.

Hmm, okay. It's just that "bearing false witness" is usually just simplified to "Don't lie." While lying may be illegal under certain conditions in most societies, all lying isn't illegal.

There are also quite a few that make the breaking of a marriage oath punishable, "commit adultery."

Eh...I don't completely agree with this one, but that gets a little theological, so I won't go into detail.

Also, in quite a few countries in the world it is illegal to worship any good except the state, "have no other Gods before me."

I do disagree with this one as well, since while other countries may have state religions that require you to worship, that is (usually) more a method of controlling the population than out of reverence, and there is nothing to prevent a person from merely paying lip service to the state religion but not really mean it.

In other words, you can have a law saying "Go to our religious buildings and say our prayers" but it's kinda hard to make a law saying "Don't have any gods before this one" because of the difficulty in proving that someone has broken that law (and even so, it still wouldn't really be based on the Ten Commandments).

I belive most cultures are strict on honoring parents, too...

Not really. I can't think of any cultures except maybe the Middle East that have any laws about children obeying parents. I think the most it extends to is "If a kid runs away from home we'll probably make the kid go back if there isn't anything terrible going on there" and a few laws about requiring parental consent for kids to do certain things...but if a kid eats cookies or plays video games when his parents told him he couldn't, the kid hasn't broken any laws.

So I may have understated it a bit. So I can say, at BEST, there's four commandments that have legal equivalents, but probably mostly 3: don't murder, don't steal, don't lie under oath, and in some rare cases, don't cheat on your spouse.

Still, even if we do extend state religion into it, that's at best five commandments out of ten...still not really a claim for "Laws based on Ten Commandments." Especially when you consider that our economic system kind of works on people coveting their neighbors' stuff, so in a way the last commandment is encouraged to be broken so people will want to buy stuff and keep our economy flowin'.

And now I've taken this way off topic. @.@

[ShiroiHikari]

Anyone remember that saying about how the single greatest cause of atheism is Christians?

[Ante Bellum]

*raises hand*
Yeah, I remember it. And I know how they could even say it. A lot of people I know, mostly my dad's family (All but five I have disowned, and of those five one is already dead.), are like that. They claim to be Christian but don't act at all like it. And one of my friends doesn't like a certain part of Christianity because her aunt kept telling her she was going to hell (I think she is agnostic but can talk about faith reasonably.), another friend has also had trouble with super strict "go to church" rules and has trouble with organized religion. I myself have a hard time with it.
Okay, I've gone way off topic here. Sorry. But really, I can believe that atheists would read the Bible, even as just a book and not something really important. Just like a Christian might read something done by a member of another faith and, no matter how important or faith-based that work might be, simply regard it as a simple story.
And then there will be those who will use the Bible to attack Christians. I have even been put down using a quote from it after I jokingly quoted Life of Brian.
Anyways, if she is agnostic, she might be more open minded than a lot, and is reading it just because.

(I probably haven't made any sense, forgive me. Also, I hate that "why is there suffering" thing. I've gotten into arguments before about that, the people said that God was a malevolent being and didn't care for people.)

[TGJesusfreak]

She has probably heard about how the Ten Commandments "limit our freedom". Never mind the fact that most societies have laws similar to them.

Maybe it's me but things like "don't murder" and "don't lie" seem like nothing contraversial. We have the freedom given by God to do whatever we want. Only we choose not to lie, kill and covet others stuff. So to say that it limits us is untrue; we limit ourselves. So that would be a weak argument at best...

[Rusty Claymore]

I confused things between established law and expected behaviour, sorry! >.<
@Ante: An odd twist dealing with the suffering bit...
Why don't people suffer? God, in all Justice, should have all suffer. We all deserve it. Each of us have done our part to damage His perfect creation. Suffering is a concequence of sin(Defined as rebelling against God). If these same people who wonder at suffering see a couple who's kids run amuck, and are not punished or responsible for the consequences of their actions, they will say that these parents do not Love their children, or perhaps in common term, do not care.
The whole argument is based off of an assumption that the offended party is innocent, when in fact it is the offending party. It is a glorious monument to God's Mercy that there are so many good and happy things and cercumstances, even in the very face of the sufferings!
Was that coherent? >.<

[firestorm]

@ rusty: Yes, a very legitimate point!

I agree with everyone else here. I myself am trying to read the Hagakure (aka not be lazy and actually read it more than once in a while) as well as the bible ( which I read more than I used to but not as often as I wish too sadly.) Reason being is that I think there is alot of things in there that the samurai valued are very similar and when read through a christian perspective can actually help you grow. Case in point would be their dedication to their lord. I hope to grow to be like that toward Christ. also their dedication to reaching their goals and living like everyday is their last which Is something I hope to grow in and gain enough courage in as well. Very inspiring and moving (Can you blame me for being a warrior at heart? really? )

The point is that while this is disconcerting maybe it's time to be open to any questions she might have. Be prepared to answer them, but also listen to her. She turned away for a reason so there might just be doubt. if that's the case be open to listen to her hear her out, be prepared to answer her questions, and most importantly love her like Jesus. his love is the best example of all. so live out that example and it will definitely impact her and give a chance to respond to God and come back. Thank you. ttyl

[Nate]

Suffering is a concequence of sin(Defined as rebelling against God). If these same people who wonder at suffering see a couple who's kids run amuck, and are not punished or responsible for the consequences of their actions, they will say that these parents do not Love their children, or perhaps in common term, do not care.

Here's the problem with this argument. I don't think atheists/agnostics are saying that God (if He exists) should not punish those who do evil. I think they'd be reasonably okay with God punishing evil. The problem comes in with God punishing them eternally.

In other words, we don't throw someone in jail for fifty years and fine them 500,000 dollars for shoplifting a pair of socks. That is why they say God is malevolent; if God threw them in Hell for say, a thousand years and then let them into Heaven, they'd probably be like "Well that's dumb, but at least they get to go to Heaven after." The question is, even if sin is bad, what sin could possibly be so great as to deserve eternal damnation? No person is capable of destroying the entirety of Creation. Killing 2 billion people would be horribly evil, sure, but in the scope of the entire universe and human history, is it really that bad? Likewise, if someone murders only one person, why should they receive the same punishment as someone who murdered 2 billion people? They're both bad, but one is clearly less bad than the other.

This also leads into the other side which is "Okay, all people may be sinners but why does it make sense for this horrible person here to live a long full life and be rich, and this dirt-poor person to live in suffering and die at a young age?" One could then say "Well, they won't be punished in THIS life, but they will in the afterlife." To which I respond, the horrible rich person who lived a full life has a change of heart and converts on his deathbed and goes to Heaven, and the dirt-poor person living in suffering and dying at a young age is an atheist who goes to Hell.

I may not be an atheist, but atheists aren't stupid and they aren't illogical. It's a pretty good idea to start looking at their arguments legitimately and not just dismiss them as "Oh they just don't understand."

[Atria35]

Several people have made very good points, and there's nothing I can really add.

If she comes to you for anything, just remember to love her, whatever her beliefs are. She may stay an atheist, she may become an agnostic, she may come back to Christianity but with an entirely different perspective (like being an old-earther or for gay marriage, etc.), or she may find an entirely different religion. Nothing says that you have to agree with her beliefs, but as long as you're willing to listen and talk with her and don't try to press your beliefs on her (and here's a big one- try to hide your disappointment, or keep it to a bare minimun. Many have been pushed away from their loved ones due to that), she'll know that she can trust you and love you forever, and might come around again.

[rocklobster]

I should also point out that she's become a Marxist. Karl Marx had a very negative opinion of religion in general, calling it an "opium for the masses."
Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far. It's given me some good food for thought for the next time I see/chat with her.
(Note to mods: Yes, I know bringing up Marxism may bring this into politics. However, I thought it might help people understand my situation)

[Ante Bellum]

[quote="Nate (post: 1387702)"]Here's the problem with this argument. I don't think atheists/agnostics are saying that God (if He exists) should not punish those who do evil. I think they'd be reasonably okay with God punishing evil. The problem comes in with God punishing them eternally.

In other words, we don't throw someone in jail for fifty years and fine them 500,000 dollars for shoplifting a pair of socks. That is why they say God is malevolent]

No, the guys I was arguing with were talking about earthly suffering, like natural disasters and stuff like that, not eternal punishment.
I pretty much answered them saying that, there has to be a point to suffering. My belief is that people suffer and change their ways with how they react to it. If a person is able to keep God in their hearts even in the midst of strife, then they are better for it. And besides, could a person really care for Heaven if their life is perfect anyways? If one has had it easy, I don't think they would find any reason to pray or seek help, because there IS nothing to bother them.

[Fish and Chips]

Not to ask the obvious question here, but you did bother to find out from her why she's become an atheist, right?

[Rusty Claymore]

@ Nate: It's for rebellion against God and rejection of the sacrifice of his Son that God punishes men for eternity. And in that case they deserve eternal punishment. Through the prescribed punishment we can understand how serious the crime.
As for varying judgement, that is only for human government. I don't like it much, but according to Jesus, hate is equivilent to murder, and lust the same as adultery. So sin is sin. Judgement variations are a remenent of when the justice system was based on reparation, paying back an equal amount to what was lost or destroyed. Thus $5 for socks, and life for life in willfull wanton murder. For accidental death, the fines were a way for the remnent of the deceased to deal with the loss of a productive member.
And besides any of that, we finite beings have no inkling of what eternity could possibly be, let alone is.
But this subject will be argued till the end of the age, so yeah. >.<

[Mithrandir]

we finite beings have no inkling of what eternity could possibly be, let alone is.

You've been to the DMV, right? XD

But this subject will be argued till the end of the age, so yeah. >.<

Maybe... But we do try to keep the arguments to a minimum on this board.


This post is mostly to remind everyone to continue being polite and keep the debate rules in mind. Thanks!

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

rocklobster, that would be 'opiate of the masses'. 'Opium of the masses' would be very different altogether (opium is a heavy drug).

[KougaHane]

I agree with W4C on this. It's quite possible she's still reading the Bible, but now with the motivation to prove that it isn't true.

The hope in this is Lee Strobel's story, if anyone has read the Case for Christ. He set out a hardcore atheist trying to disprove the Bible, and actually ended up proving it right. People don't believe, usually because they don't want to, whether they admit that or not. The best example of that is Richard Dawkins, writer of The God Delusion, who stated in the movie Expelled that "Higher Intelligence could have seeded life on the earth... not God though.. Aliens, maybe..." I LOL'd when he said something that ignorant.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

No real need to diss people like Richard Dawkins. While we may consider him as ignorant, I believe we also fail to realize our own ignorances as well.

[Atria35]

The best example of that is Richard Dawkins, writer of The God Delusion, who stated in the movie Expelled that "Higher Intelligence could have seeded life on the earth... not God though.. Aliens, maybe..." I LOL'd when he said something that ignorant.

That being said, you've hit on the belief vs. proof quandry- you believe that God created life on earth, but can you prove that aliens didn't? (I do think it's silly that Dawkins admitted one was possible, but not the other, though).

But I like to toy with the idea of aliens sometimes, when I start to think of some of the more horrible things that have happened on earth. Out of 30 extended family members that were in Europe when the Third Reich started, only 6 were alive by the time it ended. And I'm around the people who lived through it, who remember their lost ones often. So I think 'maybe God made the aliens to test us, and just hasn't bothered telling us yet- Hitler and people were like him were invaders trying to take over the world, readying it for their eventual invasion. Like War of the Worlds, but spy-style'. Does it sounds silly? Yes. But I have a hard time grappling with ideas like an all-powerful God letting the Devil get away with stuff like that. So I always go through some faith/moral questions when it's brought up.

[Peanut]

@ Nate: It's for rebellion against God and rejection of the sacrifice of his Son that God punishes men for eternity. And in that case they deserve eternal punishment.

I have to disagree with you majorly on this one. All of us deserve to be eternally punished. The only reason anyone escapes damnation is through the grace and mercy of God. If he really wants to, he could send us all away and be completely justified since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I'll stop before I write a theological paper and/or spark a debate/discussion that isn't allowed on CAA.

[Nate]

Even playing Devil's Advocate I think I'd get a bit too touchy on theological issues, so I'll refrain from saying much more aside from, I don't think real atheists would buy what you're saying.

I think this is a big problem with apologetics is that they're specifically made for Christians, not for non-Christians. While we can hear explanations to things like the Problem of Evil and be satisfied, they can't be, because they don't hold our beliefs. I know an agnostic (he says he is agnostic because while he personally doesn't believe there is a god, that it would be arrogant and ignorant to say that there definitely isn't one) who says that he has heard every theological argument for the Problem of Evil that there is practically, and he has found none of them to be satisfying in their answer.

It's kinda like Dragon Quest in a way. I mean, in Japan, they love Dragon Quest, it's like a Japanese cultural thing, the game series is huge. But in America, people just don't get it. It satisfies the Japanese, but not most of the outsiders. That's probably not the best analogy I know, but it's all I could come up with.

[Warrior4Christ]

I know an agnostic (he says he is agnostic because while he personally doesn't believe there is a god, that it would be arrogant and ignorant to say that there definitely isn't one) who says that he has heard every theological argument for the Problem of Evil that there is practically, and he has found none of them to be satisfying in their answer.

The rest is up to the Holy Spirit then.
I'm guessing for most of the tricky issues, the apologetics answer IS the answer... there is no other "agnostic-friendly" answer. In not accepting it, it shows how hard their heart is...