Nissan LEAF

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Postby mechana2015 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:32 pm

Warrior4Christ (post: 1376242) wrote:Ah, the chicken-and-the-egg problem...
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000054.html (from a software point of view)
No one's going to rush to build a charging station until there's electric cars to use it. Few are going to rush to get an electric car because it's limited by range.


Except that if the project is subsidized by corporations attempting to 'green up' by attaching charging stations to places of employment and replacing 'company cars' with electrical ones, or fuel companies attach one to an already existing petrol station (not hard to do if you can charge the thing at your house) and charge nominal fees for use... it becomes less chicken and egg. There are other subsidies that could defeat this issue as well, similar to the ones promoting battery development.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:36 pm

The government has forced the issue of infrastructure update in the past for things such as communication and water when our existing infrastructure was proving to be woefully inadequate for progressing technologies and populations. And much like the switch to unleaded, the infrastructure is already mostly there. There just needs to be the outlets/"electric" pumps.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:09 pm

ShiroiHikari (post: 1376291) wrote:
It's just, we have to face facts that sooner or later, we're going to run out of the stuff and we should try to solve the problem as soon as we can instead of just lazily passing it off on the next generation.



I'm not worried. The earth will implode in 2012 anyway XD
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Postby Warrior4Christ » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:57 am

Etoh*the*Greato (post: 1376252) wrote:If hybrids are any estimation you could look at a good five or six years for good performance, and then around 8k at this point in time to replace.


Etoh*the*Greato (post: 1376292) wrote:I'm pretty on board with alternate forms of energy for these cars (and will be even more on board once the tech is cheap enough for the masses, which is becoming a possibility thanks to the nouveau riche and the green freaks) but actually, considering when you need to change the batteries, 3k every few years is actually pretty hefty. It's my one complaint with electric hybrid cars...

3k or 8k? That's a fair difference.

ShiroiHikari (post: 1376291) wrote:Also, as for replacing the battery, $3000 bucks for car maintenance every 5 years isn't that bad, is it?

Yeah, that's actually pretty good. After 8 months with my car, I'm already over the $1,500 mark...

Etoh*the*Greato (post: 1376292) wrote:I'm pretty on board with alternate forms of energy..

I'm pretty fond of AC too...

mechana2015 (post: 1376295) wrote:Except that if the project is subsidized by corporations attempting to 'green up' by attaching charging stations to places of employment and replacing 'company cars' with electrical ones, or fuel companies attach one to an already existing petrol station (not hard to do if you can charge the thing at your house) and charge nominal fees for use... it becomes less chicken and egg. There are other subsidies that could defeat this issue as well, similar to the ones promoting battery development.

Companies have to keep the shareholders happy too, so they still need to balance excess money spent on "being green" with the improved green image.
Thankfully the charging stations shouldn't be too costly to set up though, so it might be more mainstream quicker than some kind of filling station for an alternative energy car that was much more expensive.
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Postby rocklobster » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:38 am

Warrior4Christ (post: 1376005) wrote:First off, funny name.


I agree. That has to be the worst name ever.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:24 am

Warrior4Christ (post: 1376487) wrote:3k or 8k? That's a fair difference.


Yeah, that's actually pretty good. After 8 months with my car, I'm already over the $1,500 mark...


I'm pretty fond of AC too...


Companies have to keep the shareholders happy too, so they still need to balance excess money spent on "being green" with the improved green image.
Thankfully the charging stations shouldn't be too costly to set up though, so it might be more mainstream quicker than some kind of filling station for an alternative energy car that was much more expensive.



I've heard upwards of 8k, and of course that is an unchecked number. My second statement came further down when 3k was mentioned, so I was willing to go with that number. That said, 3k is still a substantial chunk of change to put down for "routine maintenance." Not that I'm saying the batteries should cost as much as standard cost batteries, but to put it in to perspective 3k is as much as you can expect to spend on many cars to have the engine replaced. At that level of cost, the average buyer is going to be much more likely to buy a new vehicle.
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Postby shooraijin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:49 am

ShiroiHikari (post: 1376291) wrote:Hur hur nuclear power creates giant bombs! Oh wait no it doesn't. This isn't 1986 anymore.

Also, as for replacing the battery, $3000 bucks for car maintenance every 5 years isn't that bad, is it? I mean, over that 5 years you don't have to change fluids, you don't have to change filters, you don't have to BUY GASOLINE, you don't have to do any of the usual expensive crap that comes with traditional vehicles. So isn't $3000 every five years kind of a good deal?

Oh, and another thing-- I'm not saying that we can just completely stop using gasoline as soon as these cars come out, or that we can EVER completely stop. Some people do need trucks and big vehicles in order to do their jobs, and until the technology gets better you can't really do that stuff with electric motors. It's possible that they'll end up using biodiesel or something for those applications.

It's just, we have to face facts that sooner or later, we're going to run out of the stuff and we should try to solve the problem as soon as we can instead of just lazily passing it off on the next generation.


W/r/t to not buying gasoline, though, you still have to pay for the power it takes to charge it. I don't know how much that would be, though I imagine it would be somewhat less. However, I don't think there would be as big a cost differential as one would think if you consider a gasoline car driven a similar short distance with a similarly spec'ed engine.

I should also make it very clear that I don't have a problem with the car per se and I'm sure it will be very appealing to particular car buyers with relatively low requirements from a car. To get it into more people's hands, let alone long haulers like yours truly, will require either a huge jump in infrastructure (which is big buxx) or a big leap in technology (which is big buxx). Biodiesel has a lot of potential, and diesel in general is getting cleaner -- even I'm toying with a diesel for my next car.

Or, we can get a Mr Fusion like Back to the Future. That would be perfect -- run your car on coffee grounds and banana peels. (Wait: isn't that biodiesel? :cool:)
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:58 am

And Miller High Life.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:27 am

shooraijin (post: 1376509) wrote:To get it into more people's hands, let alone long haulers like yours truly, will require either a huge jump in infrastructure (which is big buxx) or a big leap in technology (which is big buxx).

They could at least make it... cooler...
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Postby Nate » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:12 pm

Etoh*the*Greato wrote:And Miller High Life.

I went trying to find a clip of the episode of Simpsons where Homer was dreaming about an alcohol-fueled car (one for you, and one for me! *glug glug*) but instead found this exchange on Fark:

Poster 1: Finally, a use for American beer

Poster 2: The cars are powered by alcohol, not water.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:32 pm

You've made me laugh, this day.
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Postby ST. Attidude » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:28 pm

ShiroiHikari (post: 1375842) wrote:How fast do you really need to go in a car though? Speed limits are only like 70 MPH. XD

People are also complaining about the range but you have to keep in mind that this stuff takes time to get established. It's not gonna be perfect right off the bat. Most families have two cars anyway, so keep your combustion engine vehicle for long trips and use the LEAF for in-town stuff.

And obviously the LEAF isn't for everybody. If you drive 100 miles a day (Lord help you) then it's not going to be practical. If you're like me and drive 100 miles in a week, it'd be pretty neat.

I think this is a big, big step forward toward a brighter future and I'll be severely disappointed if it doesn't catch on.


Definitely agree with you, Shiroi. After all, there are so many different cars for different peoples now. I think they should definitely keep this category alive. Let's face it, these cars will meet the needs of electronic-obsessive city folk more than Wranglers, Escalades, or Ferraris ever will!
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Postby ST. Attidude » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:39 pm

shooraijin (post: 1376509) wrote: Biodiesel has a lot of potential, and diesel in general is getting cleaner -- even I'm toying with a diesel for my next car.


As long as Ethanol does not spawn from it, I can see Biodiesel as a very likely possibility.
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Postby Radical Dreamer » Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:54 pm

While the idea of an electric car would be pretty cool, I do have a question, and I mean this seriously, because I don't know a whole lot about this sort of thing. XD That said, what would charging your electric car do to your electric bill? I'm just wondering how much cheaper it would be, if the money you would be spending on gas just started going to your electric bill instead. Again, I'm pretty uninformed on all of this, so if someone would like to clarify, that'd be fantastic. XD
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Postby Nate » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:15 pm

Radical Dreamer wrote:While the idea of an electric car would be pretty cool, I do have a question, and I mean this seriously, because I don't know a whole lot about this sort of thing. XD That said, what would charging your electric car do to your electric bill? I'm just wondering how much cheaper it would be, if the money you would be spending on gas just started going to your electric bill instead. Again, I'm pretty uninformed on all of this, so if someone would like to clarify, that'd be fantastic. XD

Man I wish Phil had posted about this earlier.
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Postby Radical Dreamer » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:21 pm



Man I wish I had time to read every post in every thread on this website! Thanks though, that does answer my question!
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Postby Nate » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:25 pm

Corrie as a mod you must read every post as they are posted in real time.
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Postby Shao Feng-Li » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:32 pm

Nate (post: 1376545) wrote:I went trying to find a clip of the episode of Simpsons where Homer was dreaming about an alcohol-fueled car (one for you, and one for me! *glug glug*) but instead found this exchange on Fark:

Poster 1: Finally, a use for American beer

Poster 2: The cars are powered by alcohol, not water.


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Postby shooraijin » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:09 pm

Radical Dreamer (post: 1376653) wrote:Man I wish I had time to read every post in every thread on this website! Thanks though, that does answer my question!


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Postby Sheenar » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:30 am

We had a grad student in Ag Mech who did a lot of research into biodiesel. It's a pretty promising field --imagine if you could run tractors and other heavy machinery with it--that would save a lot of money for farm operations.

I like the idea of an electric car, but it just isn't practical for me. Like shooraijin, I often have to drive long distances (back and forth to the Houston area a lot).

Also, what are the top speeds for this car again? I agree with going the speed limit, but a car also needs some get-going-fastness --I want my car to go if someone is about to crash into me because they are not paying attention (or following the rules of a 4-way stop).
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Postby mechana2015 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:35 pm

Sheenar (post: 1377488) wrote:Also, what are the top speeds for this car again? I agree with going the speed limit, but a car also needs some get-going-fastness --I want my car to go if someone is about to crash into me because they are not paying attention (or following the rules of a 4-way stop).


In the case you're asking about top speed isn't the issue...it's acceleration and torque... the ability to change speed and apply power to the wheels.

This is interesting in electric cars, since and electric motors actually have much much better torque profiles than gas engines. They can accelerate much more efficiantly since they get all the engine's torque, all the time.The Tesla has a top speed of 125 (limited by computer) but can hit 60 MPH in 3.9 seconds.

Short version: These car's actually can 'go' much better than combustion engines can.
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Postby Warrior4Christ » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:34 pm

mechana2015 (post: 1377525) wrote:In the case you're asking about top speed isn't the issue...it's acceleration and torque... the ability to change speed and apply power to the wheels.

This is interesting in electric cars, since and electric motors actually have much much better torque profiles than gas engines. They can accelerate much more efficiantly since they get all the engine's torque, all the time.The Tesla has a top speed of 125 (limited by computer) but can hit 60 MPH in 3.9 seconds.

Short version: These car's actually can 'go' much better than combustion engines can.

With a one-hundred-and-whatever grand combustion engine car, I'm pretty sure there could be one with similar acceleration figures.

Yes, electric motors have maximum torque from takeoff*, shown in red.
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Postby mechana2015 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:24 am

Warrior4Christ (post: 1377534) wrote:With a one-hundred-and-whatever grand combustion engine car, I'm pretty sure there could be one with similar acceleration figures.



I'm pretty sure Sheenar doesn't drive a 100,000 dollar sports car to work though. My interpretation of the question was about daily driving, not supercar performance.
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Postby Warrior4Christ » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:08 am

mechana2015 (post: 1377675) wrote:I'm pretty sure Sheenar doesn't drive a 100,000 dollar sports car to work though. My interpretation of the question was about daily driving, not supercar performance.

I interpreted Sheenar's comment the same way. It's just that the 3.9s Tesla Roaster in your example is $100,000, and not in reach of most people. It's light and small and built for acceleration, basically. And therefore, ordinary electrics cars would not have the same impressive acceleration.
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Postby mechana2015 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:30 am

Yes but the straight torque up to the RPM limit (redline) of the motor applies to all electrical motors, which is a straight engineering fact. In addition to that, the Leaf is a very small, light car in it's own right. It may not post a 3.9 second response, but it will definitely be a car with a lot of 'go'. I only used the Tesla because they didn't post numbers or the Leaf yet, but an electric motor of equal HP to a combustion motor will almost always out accelerate the combustion motor due to the 100% torque at all RPM to redline.
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Postby Sheenar » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:42 pm

mechana2015 (post: 1377675) wrote:I'm pretty sure Sheenar doesn't drive a 100,000 dollar sports car to work though. My interpretation of the question was about daily driving, not supercar performance.


I drive a 2007 Ford Taurus.
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Postby EricTheFred » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:16 pm

Cognitive Gear (post: 1376193) wrote:I was a pretty big advocate of the hydrogen vehicle, until I began to think about the effects all of that water could have. Even if we assume that all of the existing drainage systems are sufficient in the big cities, there is still the very real, and dangerous icing problem. If you live somewhere that it snows all throughout winter, chances are that the water will either freeze when it hits the pavement, or freeze inside the tailpipe, causing all kinds of other problems.


I don't think you have a real problem here. If you are talking about an internal combustion hydrogen vehicle, the exhaust is a hot gas. Gasoline and diesel fuel are blends of various alkanes and arenes, which produce at least half as many water molecules as carbon oxides as they burn (closer to one-to-one for diesel engines), so steam is coming out of the tailpipes of the cars we're driving now. If you replaced all the cars on the road with hydrogen-only vehicles, it would roughly triple the amount of steam (in return for dropping the oxides of carbon to zero.) If this was going to be a problem, you would already be seeing that 1/3 of that problem.

You may be referring to the question about what to do with the water produced by a fuel-cell vehicle. Some want to just let it dump out of the car as you drive, which would save weight but could cause icing issues in winter (both in the car and on the road). Others say it should be kept in a tank and dumped at the filling station. (I like the Apollo solution. The astronauts just drank the stuff. Well, then they dumped it out a little while later, I guess.)

Plug-in Hybrids resolve the chicken-and-egg dilemma. Once battery technology improves a little more, we will have cars which people plug in overnight so they can burn electricity most of the time in town, only kicking in the liquid fuel for higher speeds or longer distances. Since electricity tends to be somewhat cheaper than gasoline, and the gap is expected to widen in the future, people will want to top off their batteries and save their gasoline when they can. Once enough plug-ins are on the road, filling stations will respond to that demand. Once there are enough of these, the EVs that are already in the cities will start venturing farther into the countryside and eventually replace the hybrids.

The great thing is, the electric side of the plug-in hybrid uses all the same technologies as the EV, so the hybrid is paying for the development of the EV.

Radical Dreamer (post: 1376649) wrote:While the idea of an electric car would be pretty cool, I do have a question, and I mean this seriously, because I don't know a whole lot about this sort of thing. XD That said, what would charging your electric car do to your electric bill? I'm just wondering how much cheaper it would be, if the money you would be spending on gas just started going to your electric bill instead. Again, I'm pretty uninformed on all of this, so if someone would like to clarify, that'd be fantastic. XD


Right now in the US, most EVs that are available are roughly on a par with equivalent gasoline vehicles in the fuel operation department. In other words, if you drove a Tesla, you would be paying similar amounts in electricity as the guy with a similar gasoline burning sportster was paying in gas. Some say it is a little cheaper, but they are failing to take into account that an EV is typically a little heavier than the equivalent gasoline burner, which eats up the savings.

Thing is, a lot of EVs now available are like driving a Smart, so they probably cost a lot less to fuel than a Taurus or such. But if you could buy an electric Taurus, it would be around the same.

However, the experts in this field believe that the inflation of gasoline prices is going to continue to outpace inflation of electric prices, because petroleum is growing gradually more expensive and gasoline cars don't have the luxury of burning other fuels. Ethanol does not seem to be the salvation of the gasoline engine the way things are going, although biofuel may be able to stretch diesels for a while, it has similar competing with the food supply issues. So it isn't so much of what you save now, but what drivers may be saving ten years from now or more.

Unlike your car motor, the electricity suppliers can switch fuels (however slowly) and can shift production to the cheaper plants on the fly once multiple sources are available on the grid. Wind is already cheaper than gasoline, although still more expensive than coal. Natural gas is also cheaper, on a par with coal. Nuclear has the potential to be cheaper eventually, and so does Solar (especially with hybrid solar thermal, which can 'burn' sunlight during the day and natural gas at night or in bad weather.) Even coal helps a little. As coal plants modernize, they not only get smaller carbon footprints, they squeeze more energy out of the fuel, which pays for the modernization eventually. Also, coal plants could potentially become hybrid as well, switching between coal, natural gas and even synthetic fuels produced from green electricity in sunnier or windier parts of the country.
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Postby Radical Dreamer » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:41 pm

EricTheFred (post: 1377776) wrote:Right now in the US, most EVs that are available are roughly on a par with equivalent gasoline vehicles in the fuel operation department. In other words, if you drove a Tesla, you would be paying similar amounts in electricity as the guy with a similar gasoline burning sportster was paying in gas. Some say it is a little cheaper, but they are failing to take into account that an EV is typically a little heavier than the equivalent gasoline burner, which eats up the savings.

Thing is, a lot of EVs now available are like driving a Smart, so they probably cost a lot less to fuel than a Taurus or such. But if you could buy an electric Taurus, it would be around the same.

However, the experts in this field believe that the inflation of gasoline prices is going to continue to outpace inflation of electric prices, because petroleum is growing gradually more expensive and gasoline cars don't have the luxury of burning other fuels. Ethanol does not seem to be the salvation of the gasoline engine the way things are going, although biofuel may be able to stretch diesels for a while, it has similar competing with the food supply issues. So it isn't so much of what you save now, but what drivers may be saving ten years from now or more.

Unlike your car motor, the electricity suppliers can switch fuels (however slowly) and can shift production to the cheaper plants on the fly once multiple sources are available on the grid. Wind is already cheaper than gasoline, although still more expensive than coal. Natural gas is also cheaper, on a par with coal. Nuclear has the potential to be cheaper eventually, and so does Solar (especially with hybrid solar thermal, which can 'burn' sunlight during the day and natural gas at night or in bad weather.) Even coal helps a little. As coal plants modernize, they not only get smaller carbon footprints, they squeeze more energy out of the fuel, which pays for the modernization eventually. Also, coal plants could potentially become hybrid as well, switching between coal, natural gas and even synthetic fuels produced from green electricity in sunnier or windier parts of the country.



Merged your posts together for thread efficiency, but thanks for replying! That actually helps to clear things up even more so!
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Postby EricTheFred » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:56 pm

Radical Dreamer (post: 1377783) wrote:Merged your posts together for thread efficiency, but thanks for replying! That actually helps to clear things up even more so!


My pleasure. Sorry about the double post; I get clueless on a frequent basis.

I have to force myself not to type all night on this subject. Being (a) a geek, (b) an engineer and (c) severely ADD, I went wild on research a few years back before buying a Prius, and never quite stopped since then. So if anyone does want to know anything more on the subject, I'd be happy to answer, but I'll pipe down until asked.

(One possible question will come up if anyone spots the seeming contradiction between things I said in the two posts and wants to know about it. It isn't actually a contradiction, but the reason why would require a very large WOT).
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Postby Cognitive Gear » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:54 pm

EricTheFred wrote:Right now in the US, most EVs that are available are roughly on a par with equivalent gasoline vehicles in the fuel operation department. In other words, if you drove a Tesla, you would be paying similar amounts in electricity as the guy with a similar gasoline burning sportster was paying in gas. Some say it is a little cheaper, but they are failing to take into account that an EV is typically a little heavier than the equivalent gasoline burner, which eats up the savings.


I'm curious about this. The light research I have done in the area showed a rather large difference in cost between the two, with electric coming in significantly cheaper. Since I've only done light research, I'd love any insight you could provide.
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