Hakani

[Bobtheduck]

http://www.hakani.org/en/synopsis.asp

I have a friend that has been a missionary in Brasil for a long time, as my uncle had been though I don't know if he dealt with the indiginous population there. My friend did, and she has seen examples of some of the things in this movie. I just found out about this documentary, but I had heard a lot from my friend who had lived on the Amazon (with a well digging / filtration system installing crew)

This movie is coming under heavy attack from people who claim it's just a fundamentalist attack on tribal culture, and deny the facts of it. Facts that many people have witnessed all over the Amazon. Votes to outlaw the killing of infants with handicaps have been argued against in Brasil, again the concept of preserving the cultures as their backing. There are also people like the tourism board in Brasil who don't want any negative images lowering the number of tourists to Rio, which is a huge money maker, but the ones on the forefront are those "defending" cultures from "fundamentalists."

This isn't about attacks on culture that have been made by missionaries. I would never deny that. Things aren't quite that way today, in most cases, and certainly not in this one. It's one thing to preserve culture, but murder is not a legit part of culture. That's an issue of right and wrong, and any arguments against Abortion being murder go right out the window when you're talking about 2 year old children, in some cases.

I may have more to say on this later, but I have a class in 2 minutes.

[Nate]

Trying to think of the best way to respond to this without being overly aggressive. Hmm. Let's see.

This isn't about attacks on culture that have been made by missionaries. I would never deny that. Things aren't quite that way today, in most cases, and certainly not in this one.

I would say besides, that's offset by missionaries that have gone to tribal cultures and actually changed their beliefs, giving up their Christianity, after talking to the natives (one of the more famous examples being Daniel Everett, who went on a mission to the Pirahã]any arguments against Abortion being murder go right out the window when you're talking about 2 year old children, in some cases.[/QUOTE]
This is completely true, as abortion only deals with children still in the womb, and so if they're 2 years old abortion doesn't even come into the picture, then it's infanticide or whatever the word for it is.

Of course this is assuming that the facts are as this video/site/whatever states. It's easy to try and make things seem worse than they are for the sake of sensationalism. We've all seen documentaries that skew facts and blow things out of proportion to get more people to pay attention, some of them ridiculously influential (remember how Disney camera crews forced lemmings off the side of cliffs back in the 70s or whatever, and so now it's ingrained in people's heads that lemmings are suicidal even though it isn't true at all?). And I know we've all read news reports that are horribly one-sided and facts are twisted to make things seem worse than they are.

What I'm saying is I'm not gonna make a judgment on this whole thing until I know more facts from more sources.

[Ella Edric]

I live in a small farm with a group of 30 Indians from 7 different Indigenous groups in Brazil. Most of them had to leave their tribes because one of their children was considered a curse by the community. Some were born with a disability, others are twins and some were born to single mothers. They had to chose between their children's right to live or their right to live in their own tribe - it is a very difficult choice. Our NGO's mission is to provide shelter and medical care for families in this terrible situation. Most tribes in Brazil had abandoned the practice of infanticide, but around 20 ethnic groups still need help to guarantee the right to life to all its members. In those tribes, rejected children can be buried alive, strangled or simply abandoned to die in the jungle. We have collected over 100 hours of footage with testimonies from parents who were forced to allow the murder of their children, and from others who decided to fight for their children. Slowly the situation is changing and there is today a growing indigenous movement against the practice of cultural infanticide.

Wow Marcia. Thats amazing.

[Vega]

Wow, you have a great ministry going on, keep it up(^^)

[Bobtheduck]

Trying to think of the best way to respond to this without being overly aggressive.

You're off to a great start, I suppose.

As for the Infanticide thing, yes it is infanticide, but many in the freedom of choice lobby try to push the baby mark further back. It used to be reserved for the third trimester then to the day of birth, then to the first breath, but there are many pushing it to be after the child is weaned.

Yes, documentaries sometimes blow things out of proportion... THis is not one of those things. There are issues in which it's impossible to get the peer reviewed published cross examined proof you need because of culture and opposition you face. This is something terrible that happens and is common, and there is opposition to it that has no other motivation than keeping Christianity out of tribal culture.

[Nate]

As for the Infanticide thing, yes it is infanticide, but many in the freedom of choice lobby try to push the baby mark further back. It used to be reserved for the third trimester then to the day of birth, then to the first breath, but there are many pushing it to be after the child is weaned.

I would need to see documented evidence on that because I have never heard any pro-choice advocates say that (of course this depends on how you interpret partial-birth abortions). Regardless, I think this is getting a little too close to political discussion, so I'll leave it at that.

There are issues in which it's impossible to get the peer reviewed published cross examined proof you need because of culture and opposition you face.

Sorry, I don't buy it. That's one step above "The dog ate my homework." Evidence that cannot be presented is not evidence. Again, I've been fooled too many times by news stories that seemed completely 100% legitimate and it turns out there was more to the story. Things are often not as they appear to be.

The people who made this may be Christians, and that's fine, but I still don't believe them until I see more proof outside of this movie. If I believed everything Christian organizations told me, I'd believe all the garbage that Alberto Rivera spouts out.

Now I AM coming off as overly aggressive. :\ I can't help it I guess, it's just that I've seen panic rise up out of nothing because someone was stretching the truth, because it was a matter of life and death except really it wasn't. I'm not attacking you, it's commendable that you are interested and concerned. It's a good thing! It's just I am far more skeptical of such claims.

[Nate]

Okay. I took you up on your offer.

A Google search of "Brazil Indigena" returned results in their native language about people who live in Brazil. Likewise, a search of "Sandra Terena" turned up a few people living in Australia who I doubt are the person you speak of. A Google search for both "Brazil Indigena" and "Sandra Terena" together turns up exactly one result: this thread on CAA.

Googling "Sandra Terena" together with "Breaking the Silence" ALSO turns up one and only one result: this exact thread I'm posting in.

Likewise, a search for "FUNSAX" on Google turns up a lot of websites on how it's fun to play a saxophone. A Google search for "FUNSAX" and "Diva Kayabi" together also turns up--guess what?--this one single thread.

Man these organizations must be pretty underground, you're the only person on the internet who's ever heard of them! Maybe that's part of their secret? I guess if they have no websites the Brazilian government can't find them. I suppose that's one way to keep a low profile! Unfortunately, it does exactly zero for evidence of this case.

Your Edson Bakairi link of course did work. I don't read that language so I don't know what it says, but I assume it is a list of people who survived being killed as children. Okay, I'm not saying children are never killed in Brazil, it would be foolish of me to say that. What I'm saying is, this Hakani person, she may be an isolated incident. For example, there was recently a court case in Japan where a married couple beat and abused their 2-year-old son, fed him cigarette butts, put him in a heated oven to punish him, stuff like that. This happened! But it would be ridiculous to say all Japanese couples treat their children like this. This couple's case was an isolated incident. And there may even be other couples that do this. They may not be the only ones! But it certainly isn't some sort of epidemic spreading over the country.

And so, it may be the case with this. What happened to her happened I'm sure. But as to whether or not it is a major problem? I don't know that that can be said without evidence.

[Bobtheduck]

http://www.teresasmission.com/my-stories.html

There was more to the Brasil story than she wrote there, including the first twins in the village in their known history because someone stood against the traditions for once. The thing about the government should give you a little idea, though. This idea of preserving the tribal cultures means that no one is allowed to interfere with even the most evil things that happen there. I'm sure she would be happy to tell you more if you contacted her via the website. She could tell you more than I could. It was her experience, after all, and I will get it wrong since it's been, like, 4 years since I heard it.