4th grader nearly suspended over a lego!

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Postby Radical Dreamer » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:42 am

Lunis (post: 1372208) wrote:Hey, if they were going to freak out about the gun, they should at least be consistent and have a cow about the axe, too. XD

And ROFL at whoever started this srs(ly stupid) debate about a lego, thinking they needed to flex their debate-muscle in order to prove they're deep and intellectual. Or maybe someone just has an unhealthy one-upmanship obsession.


Wow, unnecessary argument is unnecessary; this thread was actually starting to cool down a bit. Take all further discussion regarding this post to PM, please. Posts replying to this one after my own will be deleted.
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Postby Lynna » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:59 am

minakichan (post: 1371760) wrote:I think-- and this is total speculation, as the article doesn't mention this at all-- that perhaps the principal acted not because she thought a 2 inch toy had any potential threat of hurting someone, but because of, I suppose, what she thought of the boy's mindset. In other words, if he had been drawing a picture of a gun, he might have been called out and possibly suspended for the same reason. For one, I guess, showing off guns and talking about it in school is kind of inappropriate, and for another, some people think that kids who are into guns have all these issues and are going to grow up "wrong." I guess. So the principal might have been trying to punish a "thought crime" rather than attempt to protect students or whatnot.

It's sort of like, if kids were playing video games in school, bringing Pokemon would be OK, but bringing GTA might not be.

What you say is true, however, arn't all little boys facinaited with guns and anything that goes "bang"? I mean, my brothers would always play "war" and stuff when they were little, yet they havn't gone "wrong" yet
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Postby Wikiwalker » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:13 pm

O_O Guys, it's just a news story and not even an important news story. It's not a sign of the horrible things we've done to this country. It's a short human interest story that . . .

. . . you know, I give up.:sweat:

This all reminds me of Nothing But the Truth, by Avi, and going by that *thinks for a second* . . . I'm gonna go hide before the real fireworks start going off. *scrams*
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Postby Nate » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:31 pm

Lynna wrote:What you say is true, however, arn't all little boys facinaited with guns and anything that goes "bang"? I mean, my brothers would always play "war" and stuff when they were little, yet they havn't gone "wrong" yet

Well yeah, toy guns and the like are just scapegoats. The problem is, there's no way to tell which kids are going to become murderous psychos when they grow up. There's literally nothing to point at and say "This totally did it."

Violent video games, bad parents, toy guns, violent movies, being bullied, real guns, all of these things are things people like to say "This thing made this person a stone-cold killer!" But none of them are. Lots of people enjoy those things or have those things and murderers aren't running rampant in our society. Even mental illness isn't a sure sign that someone will go crazy.

Unfortunately as long as violence exists people will make up targets to take the blame.
O_O Guys, it's just a news story and not even an important news story.

I don't think I'm exaggerating when I state that this news story is the most important news story to have ever been written in the entire recorded history of mankind, and that its implications and repercussions will be felt immediately and until the planet withers away and dies, and even perhaps beyond that. Absolutely no human being will be able to live their lives without being personally, deeply impacted by this most important, most sacrosanct of news stories.
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Postby ST. Attidude » Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:10 pm

ich1990 (post: 1371658) wrote:Oh it is definitely possible. The principle wouldn't want him to put someone's eye out would he?

At some point it is just more effective to go on a mass murdering rampage with the cafeteria forks, though. Doubly so, when you think of the quality of the food served.


After watching that video, I'm thinking by the time you need to use that gun and load it up, you'd already be dead XD
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Postby WhiteMage212 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:10 am

Well with people wanting to ban guns, it would seem they would want to ban nerf guns cuz they look like guns. On a serious note, they could have had one of the teachers ask the kid if they could look at the toy gun, examine it, then tell him just not to bring it to school and maybe a quick talk with the principle just to clarify why he can't bring it. Problem solved.
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Postby Whitefang » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:36 pm

minakichan (post: 1371760) wrote:I think-- and this is total speculation, as the article doesn't mention this at all-- that perhaps the principal acted not because she thought a 2 inch toy had any potential threat of hurting someone, but because of, I suppose, what she thought of the boy's mindset.


While I understand this (and understand you may or may not agree, minakichan), I have to say that the article indicates that the boy attached it to a police figure. To me, giving law enforcement an armament is not indicative of deranged mass murderer, but I guess you never know.

Also, there's this: "Her boy's Lego man was toting a tiny ax, which the principal deemed less threatening." So they were pretending the perp had an axe, and the cop had an assault rifle. Sounds like common kid stuff to me.
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Postby Nate » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:41 pm

I find it more disturbing that the kid thinks police officers carry assault rifles, and that a police officer would use an assault rifle against a criminal armed with an axe. And they say his dad is a police officer? He needs to educate his son more. Unless he's not a very good police officer.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:30 am

Clearly someone has never watched Judge Dredd.
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Postby Fish and Chips » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:49 am

Etoh*the*Greato (post: 1372691) wrote:Clearly someone has never watched Judge Dredd.
Coming to school itself is suspension worthy!
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:16 am

Fish and Chips (post: 1372721) wrote:Coming to school itself is suspension worthy!


He is the law.
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Postby Wikiwalker » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:39 am

Nate (post: 1372647) wrote:I find it more disturbing that the kid thinks police officers carry assault rifles, and that a police officer would use an assault rifle against a criminal armed with an axe. And they say his dad is a police officer? He needs to educate his son more. Unless he's not a very good police officer.


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Postby Fish and Chips » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:05 pm

It's common knowledge that Nate sprang fully-formed from his father's head.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:32 pm

Fish, that's just silly.











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Postby ich1990 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:51 pm

Nate (post: 1372647) wrote:I find it more disturbing that the kid thinks police officers carry assault rifles, and that a police officer would use an assault rifle against a criminal armed with an axe. And they say his dad is a police officer? He needs to educate his son more. Unless he's not a very good police officer.


A SWAT team member liberating hostages from a crazy axe-murder? Kids have dreamed up more improbable scenarios than that.
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Postby Nate » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:10 pm

The game SWAT 4, which is created to be as realistic a simulator as possible for the SWAT force, will dock you points and even make you fail the mission if you shoot and kill suspects, even if they have guns, let alone an axe.

Take that as you will. There's kind of a thing called "Authorization for use of deadly force" in law enforcement and if you shoot and kill someone when you don't have the right to use it (which is basically all the time except in extreme circumstances) you get fired or arrested yourself. This is a part of the reason cops are given time off when they kill a suspect, to investigate whether or not the use of deadly force was authorized (and also to give the cop time to wind down, since killing someone is usually pretty stressful).

Regardless a cop wouldn't be authorized to use deadly force if a person had an axe. Something about axes needing to be next to a person to kill them thus making them not as dangerous. Even if a cop was to shoot an axe-murderer, they would shoot him in a non-lethal spot. The leg, arm, shoulder, so on, and they would be using a handgun, not a freaking assault rifle.

Yes, it was a 4th grader and they create implausible scenarios. I would at least hope that his father would teach him cops aren't meant to kill people unless it's 100% necessary, which is why I said maybe he's not a very good cop. One of those guys who's gun-crazy and thinks "Man I can't wait to shoot someone." And that would be frightening to have an officer like that.
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Postby Etoh*the*Greato » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:33 pm

Strictly speaking, the world of childhood fantasy can be far removed from reason obviously. Anything we say about his home life beyond the facts: He has two parents, one of them (the father) happens to have been a police officer at one point - will be pure speculation. For all we know he could be very well aware of that exact lesson. I took martial arts, and the lack of fantastic displays of awesome from my teachers had me becoming supicious that the cool stuff you see Ninja do doesn't actually happen. That didn't keep me from including it in my routine fantasies of play, though.

Yes, I recognize the analogy doesn't connect all the way. We're talking his situation, deadly use of force, versus my situation, the Karate kid. The line I'm trying to draw, though, is a separation between a child's conscious knowledge of reality versus his sense of fantasy in play. Cognitively, once they reach that general period of their life they are starting to become more and more aware of the separation of the two, even going so far as to actually draw clear lines between the two, compartmentalizing parts of his life.
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Postby ich1990 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:47 pm

[quote="Nate (post: 1372761)"] There's kind of a thing called "Authorization for use of deadly force" in law enforcement and if you shoot and kill someone when you don't have the right to use it (which is basically all the time except in extreme circumstances) you get fired or arrested yourself.

Regardless a cop wouldn't be authorized to use deadly force if a person had an axe. Something about axes needing to be next to a person to kill them thus making them not as dangerous. Even if a cop was to shoot an axe-murderer, they would shoot him in a non-lethal spot. The leg, arm, shoulder, so on, and they would be using a handgun, not a freaking assault rifle.

Yes, it was a 4th grader and they create implausible scenarios. I would at least hope that his father would teach him cops aren't meant to kill people unless it's 100%]

While I can't speak for the conditions in a video game, police officers (and SWAT teams) are allowed to kill the suspect if it is clear that there is an immanent danger to the hostages or themselves. This is why police practice shooting silhouette targets of criminals holding a person in front of them.

I also think you may be confused as to what constitutes an assault rifle. By definition they have selective fire capabilities, meaning that they can be shot in semi-auto mode. They are also not "spray and pray" weapons but mid-sized and quite accurate.

I doubt a SWAT member, in a hostage situation, would put down his full sized assault rifle and draw his much more inaccurate sidearm to shoot a suspect. When he did shoot, he would fire at whatever was exposed, often the head. He would shoot to preserve the life of the hostage and himself first, suspect second. Police may "shoot the bad guy in the knee" in the movies, but in real life if you have to stop somebody you shoot for the torso or the head. As for a suspect using an axe instead of a knife or gun, that is a little shakier. It is a lot harder to kill a hostage with an axe, but I could imagine situations where it would be necessary for an officer to shoot to stop that from happening.

Even if it is highly implausible, I agree with Etoh, children make up fantasies all the time. It doesn't mean that the father is being negligent, just that the child's prepubescent intellect is distorting and misapplying what he has been told. It could also mean that he has been watching too much tv, where reality is somewhat diluted. It could also mean the child didn't have a toy gun to arm his bad guy with, and had to settle for an axe. In any case, I don't think you have enough facts to deride the father's parenting skills.
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Postby RidleyofZebes » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:01 pm

Mr. SmartyPants (post: 1371722) wrote:THAT'S WHAT... nevermind.


XDD Ryan beat me to it. By... *checks clock* 4 days. Oh well.

But as for the topic at hand, I believe anything that I could have added has already been hammered out nicely, and I'd only end up stoking the fire that is already calmed down much.

I will say that every time I read about things like this, I'm grateful that I was home-schooled. As many issues as I've had with the process, being spared the drama of these kinds of confrontations and entanglements just may have made it worthwhile.

I can think of nothing else to add save my applause to the great debate machine that is Nate and Co.. This has been a thoroughly enlightening read, and I will continue to follow it.
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Postby raider~joseph » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:19 pm

.......I don't know whats worse that this happened or that this happens all the time.
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Postby Nate » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:59 pm

Whew, okay! A lot to respond to I think.
ich1990 wrote:While I can't speak for the conditions in a video game, police officers (and SWAT teams) are allowed to kill the suspect if it is clear that there is an immanent danger to the hostages or themselves. This is why police practice shooting silhouette targets of criminals holding a person in front of them.

This is correct. In the game, this is how it works. If a dude is just squatting somewhere holding a gun and you shoot and kill them, you are docked points for unauthorized use of deadly force. You are ONLY allowed to kill them if they shoot at you or your teammates. Even then you still don't get full points in the game (the only way to get full points is to incapacitate them, not kill them).

The use of deadly force is something we went over a lot when I was working SSDF (basically military police) in the Navy. There are very specific times you are allowed to use deadly force and God help you if you use it when you aren't allowed.

If a dude came up to the ship brandishing an axe, basically we would not be allowed to use deadly force on him. We could shoot him, but we were not allowed to kill him. Of course, if we shot him and he died from the wound but it was obvious we weren't trying to kill him it'd still be okay.

Like what I'm saying is, if we shot him in the torso and he bled to death or something, we'd be in the clear. If we were to have shot him in the head though we'd be in serious trouble because that means we were obviously trying to kill him which would be unauthorized. In fact, you can serve hard time in a military prison if you kill a suspect in the Navy working security and you have a Marksman badge (because that means you would be a good enough shot to shoot him somewhere non-lethal).

Obviously civilian cops aren't quite as strict as the military]I also think you may be confused as to what constitutes an assault rifle. By definition they have selective fire capabilities, meaning that they can be shot in semi-auto mode. They are also not "spray and pray" weapons but mid-sized and quite accurate. [/QUOTE]
I don't know much about guns so I'll take your word on that since I really don't know what kind of toy gun the kid had and what the real-world version's capabilities are. Still he said his dad was a police officer, not SWAT, although his dad may be SWAT and he's just too young to make the distinction, I'm not really sure. But a regular police officer wouldn't be carrying an assault rifle either way in normal circumstances.
I doubt a SWAT member, in a hostage situation, would put down his full sized assault rifle and draw his much more inaccurate sidearm to shoot a suspect. When he did shoot, he would fire at whatever was exposed, often the head. He would shoot to preserve the life of the hostage and himself first, suspect second. Police may "shoot the bad guy in the knee" in the movies, but in real life if you have to stop somebody you shoot for the torso or the head. As for a suspect using an axe instead of a knife or gun, that is a little shakier. It is a lot harder to kill a hostage with an axe, but I could imagine situations where it would be necessary for an officer to shoot to stop that from happening.

Okay lot of stuff to cover here too! The use of deadly force in civilian police cases is covered by the Supreme Court case Tennessee v. Garner. Basically a dude named Garner committed a burglary and was fleeing the scene, and the officer shot him in the back of the head. The dude's father sued the city of Memphis and the precinct for killing his son. The District Court ruled in favor of the police, but the father appealed, and the Court of Appeals reversed the decision, saying that shooting a fleeing suspect counted as "seizure" and thus was not warranted, especially in light of the fact that it was a simple burglary.

Anyway long story short it went to SCOTUS and they ruled in favor of the police/city that deadly force was authorized. So SCOTUS laid down when deadly force is authorized in a civilian police situation. It boils down to this: when the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious injury to the officer or others, or when pursuing a fleeing suspect that fits the same criteria.

To use the axe scenario: if a person just has an axe swinging it around, being crazy, a police officer would PROBABLY not be able to use deadly force (but could still shoot him) because the person isn't too much of a significant threat to anyone, since people could run away from him more than likely. If it was a gun, then yeah, they could use deadly force because you can shoot people a lot easier than you can swing an axe at them.

If the axe-wielder had a hostage, then the police would definitely be able to use deadly force because unlike if he was alone, having a hostage means he can absolutely inflict death or serious injury to that person.

And if the axe-man was running from the scene of a crime then police could use deadly force to stop him too.

I'm not an expert in police work, I only know what I know from working security in the Navy (and I had a 9mm Baretta so I mean I COULD have shot someone if I had needed to) and if someone had an axe or a knife but no hostages when I was working security, then I would not have been allowed to kill him, only shoot him to stop the action. Maybe civilian police are more lax on their authorization of deadly force? Although I HOPE not, but I can't assume since I don't know which is why I said "PROBABLY" up there when I was talking about the first situation.
It doesn't mean that the father is being negligent, just that the child's prepubescent intellect is distorting and misapplying what he has been told. It could also mean that he has been watching too much tv, where reality is somewhat diluted. It could also mean the child didn't have a toy gun to arm his bad guy with, and had to settle for an axe. In any case, I don't think you have enough facts to deride the father's parenting skills.

Okay fair enough but there are a few people here who think kids need to be taught guns aren't toys, to respect guns (and not ban them) and all that stuff. And I would think or hope that if his dad IS a cop then he would instill that respect and whatnot in his kid and say stuff like "Shooting people isn't fun, it's not a game, guns aren't toys, we don't shoot someone unless there's no other way," etc. See my dad was a pharmacist and they don't really work with guns and my dad didn't really have any guns anyway (except a hunting rifle) which he made abundantly clear was NOT to be messed with.

Maybe I just didn't have any interest in guns in the first place as a kid so it's hard for me to see another view on the subject. *shrug* I fully admit this. I'm probably trying to apply adult thinking to a 4th grader which I guess probably doesn't work too well. So I will close with this cop-out.

Everyone is ignoring the fact that the size of that toy gun means it would never fit in a Lego character's hands anyway! Have you seen the hands on Lego people? They're WAY too small to hold something that big!
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Postby ich1990 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:19 pm

Nate (post: 1372865) wrote:Nate's post.

After reading all of that, it sounds like we are pretty much in agreement.

It is possible for a officer to legally shoot an axe wielding hostage taker with an assault rifle, fatally]http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2010/02/04/image6173680x.jpg[/img]
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/04/crimesider/entry6173526.shtml
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Postby Nate » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:26 pm

That picture only further proves me right. There's no way that Lego dude could shoot an axe-wielding maniac like that, unless the axe-man was wearing a jetpack.
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Postby AJV » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:56 am

This thread racked up a lot of posts since I last checked...
Anyway, it's ridiculous. Once the principle saw it was a toy gun, she should let the kid be instead of pulling him out and calling his parents and making a big deal out of it.-_-
Another thing I noticed: That gun isn't even Lego. -_-;
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