Japanese role-playing games for the ニンテンドーＤＳ

[blkmage]

Hello friends.

I've been listening to Retronauts and Active Time Babble recently. The constant talk of the history, present state, and future of JRPGs has compelled me to play some more modern JRPGs. In particular, I really loved TWEWY, which I've played to death. I also found that I'm not really in the mood for old-school, as Final Fantasy IV DS has been fairly frustrating. I guess JRPGs have changed in the last decade, huh.

I've already got Devil Survivor and Strange Journey on my list of things to take a look at, since Megaten seems to be the big thing in JRPGs over the last few years. I'm probably going to pass on Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days since it seems that KH has devolved into some convoluted mess about Nomura-people. And as I said before, I'm aware of and not particularly interested in remakes and re-releases.

So, what are some titles I should be considering or keeping in mind?

[Fish and Chips]

I enjoy Megaten games, but they tend to differ ever-so-slightly in mechanics between individual titles. For example, Persona 3 and 4 have a high school/dating sim flavor to them, while also sporting randomized turn-based dungeon crawling; by contrast, Devil Summoner 2: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon by the same people is mostly a by-the-book RPG, except with real time battles and a return to Megaten's classic negotiation system. And of course all these games are easier than "True" Megaten games, such as Nocturne, which is infamous for it's frequently punishing difficulty. It'd be easier for me to recommend a game from Atlus' flagship franchise if I knew what you were looking for specifically in an RPG.

Devil Survivor should be a pretty safe and accessible choice, though. Especially since it gives you total control over skill inheritance.

I can, however, recommend Odin Sphere. A lot of things can be said about the game. It's beautiful. It's suitably epic in scope. Instead, I will simply say that it has the best inventory management system I have ever seen in any game, almost a puzzle in itself, which should distract you from the occasionally repetitive gameplay. You can pick it up cheap too, so there's really no reason not to.

Everything I've mentioned so far is for the PS2, naturally. There are a few other RPGs for it that I own, but I haven't played them significantly enough to recommend them. However, if you're interested in Rogue Galaxy, Disgaea 2, Dark Cloud 2, or Dragon Quest VIII, tell me and I'll keep you posted as I get around to them.

Also, if you own a DS and don't yet own Chrono Trigger, rectify this immediately. Yes, its "Old school" port, but that doesn't change anything.

[Nate]

Oooh JRPGs! That's where I'm a viking!

It's hard to tell what exactly you find frustrating about FFIV DS (especially since you added the statement about JRPGs changing in the last decade, when FFIV DS came out like two years ago...) so I'm going to assume you have a problem with turn-based combat. This assumption is further strengthened by your love of TWEWY which had hideous real-time combat (hissssss). In which case you'd be better off not bothering with the Megaten games either since they also have turn-based combat. In fact if you're really into real-time combat you're better off looking at Western RPGs because they seem to love that crap.

But maybe I'm assuming too much. Maybe you don't hate turn-based combat and find something else frustrating about FFIV DS, though I can't see what (certainly can't be the difficulty, the game's laughably easy).

Regardless instead of making assumptions and being ignorant, I will instead endeavor to be of use and helpfulness!

First of all the Super Mario RPGs are a blast. The original Super Mario RPG was actually made by Squaresoft, and it's really awesome. The Paper Mario games are also really cool (although Super Paper Mario is a platformer not an RPG). The "Mario & Luigi" RPG series of games (Superstar Saga, Partners in Time, Bowser's Inside Story) are also really great, but be warned Partners in Time is the weakest of the series and is an average game overall. Definitely go with Superstar Saga or Bowser's Inside Story.

One of my favorite series of games, Wild Arms, is sweet if you like western themes (by that I mean like, cowboys, wild west type feel, y'know?). I'd recommend the original or Wild Arms 3 (I would recommend Alter Code F, but you said you weren't interested in remakes and that's a remake of the original, although it's still really good). Wild Arms 4 and 5 are okay, but not as good as 1 and 3, and 2 is just kinda weird (especially since the English translation is wack, and not wiggidy wack, just regular type).

DRAGON QUEST. A thread like this cannot and must not go by without mentioning Dragon Quest! THE RPG in Japan. Dragon Quest is a cultural phenomenon, and tried-and-true. Did you know Dragon Quest IX was originally going to have real time combat? But when Squenix unveiled it to the public, the backlash was staggering! Everyone in Japan hated it! "It just doesn't feel like Dragon Quest," they said. So Squenix returned to the standard turn-based combat! Truly the feel-good story of the ages for true JRPG fanatics like me. Having turn-based combat infect Dragon Quest games would be a nightmare.

Dragon Quest VIII. Buy it, play it, love it. It's unbelievably fantastic. Dragon Quest VII is good too, but since it was made by Enix on its lonesome it lacks a bit in a lot of places, though the story is fantastic. It isn't out yet, but I'm looking forward to the aforementioned Dragon Quest IX which should come out this year hopefully. Most of the other DQ games are old or remakes, so I won't mention them (though if you get an emulator or ROM Dragon Quest V is a wonderful chapter in the series).

Finally, I'll close with Disgaea. Disgaea is an Atlus game, and while some people seem to love Atlus, I've always found them to be a bit too ambitious and player-unfriendly. I can't think of a single Atlus game I've really enjoyed completely. They try to do too much stuff and it's a pain. If you don't mind wasting like 300 hours on a game though then you might like Disgaea, but I gave up when I was trying to level a character to level 30 so she wouldn't die in one hit...I gave up after four hours of trying and having only gotten her to 26. And when you consider you want to be level 9999 for most bosses (yes the levels go into four digits) I gave up on Disgaea, that's just absurd. I have other games to play. Anyway other people seem to like them so maybe you will. I guess?

Arc the Lad is a pretty unknown series but I love it. The first game isn't anything special but it was one of those games where you could make a save file at the end, and then use that save file in the sequel to unlock new features and stuff. Arc the Lad II is absolutely fantastic and one of my favorite RPGs. The story is incredible, and I just like it all around. Arc the Lad III is okay but not really that great, basically just a cash-in since the second game was supposed to be the end of the series. The fourth one (Twilight of the Spirits) is pretty good too, though I never beat it, the final boss is rough. The voice acting is kinda ridiculous and flat-out lousy in a few spots though, but the game itself is solid (with some sweet music too).

Most of the other ones I like are basically one-offs (some had sequels but weren't all that impressive). Jeanne D'Arc is great, as is Legend of Legaia. Lunar 1 and 2 are pretty cool. I know I'm forgetting a lot of games, but when you've played as many JRPGs as I have you're bound to forget a few. Anyway, hope I've helped a bit! JRPGs are my boom after all.

[blkmage]

Dangit, I forgot to mention (except, poorly, in the thread title) that I wanted DS JRPGs, since that is the only system I own (unless I want to play, like, I don't know, The Last Remnant (HAHAHAHAHA) or something on PC). Oh well. I'm really just not familiar with the current crop of JRPGs anyway (not that I can play them). I've been through a lot of the SNES ones and I know about but can't play most of the PS1/2 ones.

My problem with FFIV is that I had to grind and grind and grind and grind even really early in the game in order to get anywhere. That combined with random encounters and ATB (which I've come to dislike) made it really not fun. I do enjoy turn-based combat though. Chrono Trigger is an example of a game with turns that doesn't do random encounters and I don't remember doing a whole bunch of grinding either.

In fact, I usually do prefer turn-based combat over real-time combat, but TWEWY's was so fun. That's another reason I don't like Kingdom Hearts, because I also find its combat and controls not very fun for me.

I guess I will check out DQIX later on since I've heard good things about it. Also, Infinite Space intrigues me.

[Fish and Chips]

Curse you Blkmage, stop posting things in Japanese.

[blkmage]

I was hoping the DS would give it away.

ALSO JAPANESE ROLE PLAYING GAMES ARE IN JAPANESE.

[Peanut]

Do you have a DS or a DSi? Because if you have a DS, then you can also go back to the Gameboy Advance's library as well if you haven't exhausted it already.

On the DS, there isn't much that I can recommend that hasn't already been mentioned.

Disgaea DS is pretty good, though you will end up level grinding a lot in this game.

I've played Final Fantasy Tactics A2 on the DS as well and it isn't bad. You can definitely find better SRPGs on the DS, but this really isn't a bad game.

If you want to go the import route, Inazuma Eleven is supposedly pretty good.

Other then that, I can't think of anything else to recommend.

[MasterDias]

I'll also recommend Devil Survivor. I enjoyed it quite a bit.

You might take a look at Knights in the Nightmare as well. It's basically a "bullet hell strategy RPG." I'd imagine it's something of an acquired taste though, but if you want original games, it's worth trying out. It's made by the same team who made Riviera: The Promised Land and Yggdra Union.

[TriezGamer]

Finally, I'll close with Disgaea. Disgaea is an Atlus game, and while some people seem to love Atlus, I've always found them to be a bit too ambitious and player-unfriendly. I can't think of a single Atlus game I've really enjoyed completely. They try to do too much stuff and it's a pain. If you don't mind wasting like 300 hours on a game though then you might like Disgaea, but I gave up when I was trying to level a character to level 30 so she wouldn't die in one hit...I gave up after four hours of trying and having only gotten her to 26. And when you consider you want to be level 9999 for most bosses (yes the levels go into four digits) I gave up on Disgaea, that's just absurd. I have other games to play.

Where to start ... first off, Disgaea isn't an Atlus game -- the original PS2 release was localized by Atlus, but it's a Nippon Ichi game. Disgaea can be beaten in a modest 35-40 hours. Level 9999 isn't necessary even for most of the optional bosses (though some of the most extreme ones require closer to 100000 levels -- despite the counter only going to 9999, stored levels in reincarnation impact a character significantly), and the game can be beaten at level 60 without any trouble.

Disgaea's optional content is the only stuff that is truly a grind-fest. Now, I'll grant that it's not an EASY game to beat without grinding a little bit, and most people make the mistake of grinding character levels (which are largely meaningless and slow to attain) instead of equipment levels (which can be raised significantly faster and have a far more significant effect) -- on my fastest playthrough I still had to do about 130 item world floors of grinding (about 90 seconds per floor).

Disgaea 2 and 3 are more forgiving (and simultaneously more insane in their optional end-game stuff). Disgaea 3 I beat only doing 20 item world floors at level 60 and in about 30 hours, though it took me 297 hours to take out the final optional boss after building a near-perfect set of equipment for Raspberyl, and then maxing out her levels around 270,000. Probably could have done it faster using a melee character (as they have significantly larger damage modifiers in D3), but I just loved Beryl too much.

[Nate]

ALSO JAPANESE ROLE PLAYING GAMES ARE IN JAPANESE.

Yes but CAA is in English so lrn2english.

You had to grind early on? Really? I...I can't imagine why. The game is made so the only grinding you even really need to do is close to the end of the game (if that). And if you don't like ATB there isn't much that can be done about that, but you said you love Chrono Trigger and that...that has ATB too.

Anyway. I suppose I should respond to Triez. XD

Okay, it was localized by Atlus, but not made by them. Fair enough. It says Atlus in the title screen though so it's not a hard mistake to make, but I was wrong. I can admit that.

Okay so I was playing the game wrong. I guess? When the game doesn't even tell you how to play it though that's a mark of a bad game. The reason I was grinding (and the part I got destroyed at) was when I was fighting Kurtis. My Cleric was like level 10 and he would go after her and kill her in one hit, thus I was left without a major healing source, and then he'd proceed to wipe out the rest of my party (yes, I knew about the master/apprentice system and I had I think one other member that knew curative spells through it but they weren't as good at it as the Cleric was because it was mostly only used as a backup).

The game basically says "Oh hey, there's this item world thing you can go do if you want." Nowhere does the game say "Hey you absolutely have to do this item world thing if you want to get anywhere in the game or you're going to die." I saw it as like the Augments in FFIV. You can use them if you want and give some cool abilities to your team but you can largely ignore them too and still beat it. If the thing is so bloody important to beating the game the least they could do is say it up front or emphasize it.

It doesn't help I found the item world to be the weakest and most godawful boring as hell part of the game. Sorry but a couple hundred randomly generated maps one right after each other is poor game design, especially when you have to do at LEAST ten levels at once just to give the thing a slight boost (and if I remember correctly, you have to start over from floor 1 if you leave).

So I guess the game just isn't for me, which happens sometimes. Although I can't imagine who it IS for, then. I mean I was sick of Final Fantasy XII and done with it after 150 hours of doing literally everything to do in the game. And that took FOREVER. Probably would've taken less time without that stupid random treasure chest crap but still.

And I won't get into my opinions on Yggdra Union and Riviera. I just...won't. Though after a quick look at Wiki it seems those two games were merely published by Atlus not made by them, but still. I'm not even going to start.

[MasterDias]

I actually have a similar problem with Nippon Ichi's SRPGs. Their game systems (at least, in the games I've played...which is not very many) tend to be so convoluted and grind-heavy that they just get tiring after awhile. And I really enjoy Strategy RPGs. I did finish Disgaea, but never beat Phantom Brave for this reason, despite the crazyness of beating up enemies with weeds and trees. Eventually, I just hit a wall where I had to grind, and the grinding was slow and boring.

[ShiroiHikari]

Hey blkmage, if you like giant robots, RPGs, and can read a lot of Japanese, maybe try the Super Robot Wars series. Super Robot Wars W on the DS is supposed to be pretty good.

[KeybladeWarrior]

If I had to go with some good JRPGs it would be Tales of Symphonia and Tales of Vesperia. It is like a nice escape from turn-based combat.

[TriezGamer]

Okay so I was playing the game wrong. I guess? When the game doesn't even tell you how to play it though that's a mark of a bad game. The reason I was grinding (and the part I got destroyed at) was when I was fighting Kurtis. My Cleric was like level 10 and he would go after her and kill her in one hit, thus I was left without a major healing source, and then he'd proceed to wipe out the rest of my party (yes, I knew about the master/apprentice system and I had I think one other member that knew curative spells through it but they weren't as good at it as the Cleric was because it was mostly only used as a backup).

The trick to levelling Clerics is to either use them in combination attacks (even if they deal zero damage, they gain an even share of the EXP if the enemy dies), or use the master / apprentice system to teach them some offensive spells. Reality is, though, that healing / restorative spells are virtually useless in the Nippon Ichi games from the start. It's a gripe I've always had with their games - due to a gross imbalance in ATK / MAG and DEF / RES, the only real 'strategy' in the Disgaea games is 'beat it up before it gets a turn'. The non-Disgaea Nippon Ichi games have slightly better balance, but usually have OTHER game mechanics issues that are just as bad, if not worse. The most balanced one out of all of them is La Pucelle Tactics -- incidentally, in my opinion, the best game out of all of them anyway. Not only does it have an amazing story (though it doesn't actually pick up until Ch 8, and up to that point the game seems completely retarded), but it's system was significantly less confusing and far more straightforward. It was still difficult, particularly in the first few stages, but I don't remember ever having to do much grinding there.

The game basically says "Oh hey, there's this item world thing you can go do if you want." Nowhere does the game say "Hey you absolutely have to do this item world thing if you want to get anywhere in the game or you're going to die."

The first Disgaea game in particular was extremely bad about not giving you much context for anything, but even Disgaea 2 and 3 don't really emphasize it. Then again, you don't really HAVE to do it in 2 and 3 beyond a few floors here and there.

I saw it as like the Augments in FFIV. You can use them if you want and give some cool abilities to your team but you can largely ignore them too and still beat it. If the thing is so bloody important to beating the game the least they could do is say it up front or emphasize it.

Yeah, I'm not faulting you here. Diving all 100 floors of a legendary item makes such an obscene difference that it's a little bit misleading to think of it as an optional thing if you want to be more powerful, but even doing the 30 floors of a non-legendary item makes a massive difference. To give an example of just how important the item world levelling is, the highest rank spear in Disgaea 3 is a Legendary rank Flare Pheonix. It has a base attack of 22,500. After 100 floors of it's item world, it's base attack is 1,863,514. Disgaea 1's scaling isn't much different.

It doesn't help I found the item world to be the weakest and most godawful boring as hell part of the game. Sorry but a couple hundred randomly generated maps one right after each other is poor game design, especially when you have to do at LEAST ten levels at once just to give the thing a slight boost (and if I remember correctly, you have to start over from floor 1 if you leave).

While you don't have to start at floor 1 if you leave, the rest of it's fairly accurate. The trick to item world grinding is to never fight. Every floor has an exit -- knock the enemy away from the exit using a fist-based attack if an enemy is standing on it, and then move a character on top of it to leave. Most floors are finished in 90 seconds or so if an enemy is on the gate. 20 seconds or less if it's clear. The only battles you should intentionally fight in an item world are the bosses every 10 floors, as they give a bonus to the item's stats when killed. That said, Disgaea 2 and 3 added a lot more things to the item world to make them less monotonous, but it's still basically just a 10 floor blitz, leave, save, blitz another 10 floors.

So I guess the game just isn't for me, which happens sometimes. Although I can't imagine who it IS for, then. I mean I was sick of Final Fantasy XII and done with it after 150 hours of doing literally everything to do in the game. And that took FOREVER. Probably would've taken less time without that stupid random treasure chest crap but still.

There's a market for the games. I love them (though I do believe they are riddled with flaws). The biggest gripe I have with them is that unless you simply blitz the storyline with minimal grinding, there's no strategy to them at all -- it's either you are strong enough to win, or weak enough to lose.

And I won't get into my opinions on Yggdra Union and Riviera. I just...won't. Though after a quick look at Wiki it seems those two games were merely published by Atlus not made by them, but still. I'm not even going to start.

I haven't played those yet. I'm not sure if I should take this as a recommendation.



All in all, I'm not belittling your opinion. It's a perfectly valid one, and frankly, I don't blame you for having it. My goal here is more to help people who may have become interested in playing the game so that they don't have the same miserable experiences. The Disgaea games are extremely flawed, lack any decent guidance, and require inordinate amounts of grinding if you want to do the optional content, but to play them as a standard 30-50 hour RPG is not only possible, but quite easy and enjoyable -- if you understand some of these odd quirks. Which, without guidance, you won't.

[blkmage]

You had to grind early on? Really? I...I can't imagine why. The game is made so the only grinding you even really need to do is close to the end of the game (if that). And if you don't like ATB there isn't much that can be done about that, but you said you love Chrono Trigger and that...that has ATB too.

I have no idea why I had to grind. I expected to cruise through it like I did with CT and FFVI. I think the spot I left off at is when they're infiltrating Baron Castle.

The thing with things I like and don't like are because of the way they work with other in-game systems. FFIV is the first FF to use ATB and coupled with random battles, it's not fun for me.

In the case of Chrono Trigger, the tech system made ATB more than just waiting for a character's turn, since you now had to manage your time and decide whether to wait so you could double tech or something. And for the most part, it didn't have random battles.

Anyway, I mentioned my likes and dislikes, but I don't rule out games if they've got something interesting to them that'd mitigate the things I don't like.

In other news, my Chrono Trigger DS came in the mail today, which was actually the purchase that motivated this thread. I'm probably not going to play it yet, since I've already played it before and I want to check out some newer stuff.

Also, I might check out SRW, but contrary to what the thread title might indicate, I can't actually read Japanese. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about mixing up continuity from a billion robot animu.

[Nate]

I haven't played those yet. I'm not sure if I should take this as a recommendation.

Well real quick I'll give you first impressions of the games.

Yggdra Union - I thought this would be a combination of SRPGs and Advance Wars, but it's not really like either. It seems bogged down by trying to do too many things at once.

Before combat you pick cards. The cards tell you how many spaces your army can move in a turn, have a special effect (which is only usable by people equipped with the weapon type in the upper corner), and dictate how many turns you have, and each card is used up at the end of your turn.

You can only attack once per turn, even if your other characters still have moves left and are able to move in position of an enemy unit. During combat enemies get stronger the longer you take to beat them. You can change tactics to offensive or defensive by holding a direction on the D-Pad as combat goes on. When you beat an enemy you don't really beat them if they still have morale left after the battle is over. If you beat an enemy as long as they still have morale they'll still be on the map]Riviera[/u] - Okay, at first, I loved this game. The combat system is excellent, the graphics are good, music is cool, and I liked the map movement. The level system is unique and interesting and I like it.

Then, it started having problems. For one, you get ranked on your combat. I hate games that make getting good ranks a necessity to do well in the game. The better you do in combat, the more TP you get. You need TP to examine things on the map and to open chests. If you don't have enough TP, then TS for you. Since battles are a fixed occurrence and limited in number, it's possible (and likely) for you to be in a dungeon with no more possible battles, out of TP, and thus unable to get treasures and stuff. That's bad.

Second, the item system works like this (and the level system). Each item has a limited number of uses, like let's say, an Iron Sword has 40 uses. If you use it in combat 40 times, it's gone. Now, some characters can learn Skills by using an item in combat. If say, Ein uses an Iron Sword 5 times, he learns a Double Slash skill. When he learns a skill, his stats go up (there's no experience or numerical levels, just stats go up when you learn a skill). One of the other characters takes 3 uses of it to learn a different skill. The third character will never learn a skill from the Iron Sword. So, different characters need different items to learn skills.

Here's where the problems arise. When a battle starts, you can only take four items with you in combat. This means a lot of skills you learn you may never use, because you have only four slots to work with, meaning everyone needs a decent weapon, and you need healing items too, oh and there's no Defend or Pass option either, you HAVE to use an item with a character when their turn comes up. You can't use a skill you've learned UNLESS you bring that item in with you, which is why I said you'll have skills you won't use, especially when...

You have a ridiculously, RIDICULOUSLY limited inventory space. You can carry 15 items. That's IT. And considering most items have skills you want characters to learn (because that's how your stats increase) it means you'll hit the maximum amount of items you can carry very very quickly, which means you'll need to play musical chairs with your items and figure out "Okay, I've learned skills for everyone on THIS item so I don't really need it" or "Well this item is pretty useful but no one can learn a skill of it so I should probably dump it." After EVERY battle. And since you have to constantly shed old items to get new ones to learn new skills it means you'll dump items with useful skills because you can't learn anything else off of them anymore and then your characters won't get stronger.

If the inventory system didn't have such a horribly small limit I'd love the game. As it is it's too frustrating to have to dump items after literally every battle, especially useful ones.

And now I'll shut up.

I think the spot I left off at is when they're infiltrating Baron Castle.

Oh right, the fight with what's-his-name. The captain or whatever with the two arms. Or did you leave off in the sewers?

Either way if you didn't like the game that can't be helped. Everyone has different tastes. *shrug*

And yeah Final Fantasy VI is notoriously easy. Especially the SNES and PSX versions where you could just Vanish/Doom everything.

[uc pseudonym]

I'm also in an rpg mood, but I'm likewise not sure where I want to go next.

I have no idea why I had to grind. I expected to cruise through it like I did with CT and FFVI. I think the spot I left off at is when they're infiltrating Baron Castle.

I haven't played the remake, but for whatever it's worth, I found that the classes you're using make a huge difference in the feeling of the difficulty. Basically, whenever I was on the world map or in an easy area, I used various classes, but for the dungeons I put everyone in a high damage class (with a white magic secondary) and steamrolled everything. That worked pretty well for me, but your mileage may vary.

If the inventory system didn't have such a horribly small limit I'd love the game. As it is it's too frustrating to have to dump items after literally every battle, especially useful ones.

This annoyed me too. Eventually I just picked four good items to use for actual fighting and then automatically tossed everything else that didn't teach a new skill. For me that reduced the tedium, anyway.