Objection to Christianity

[Ingemar]

I wrote this in the thread Good Christian/Bad Christian and it wasn't addressed. And I've added on to it since.

I can say I'm the worst Christian on this forum.

My faith is so nonexistent that like Thomas, I won't believe a jot or tittle of anything written unless I actually see and hear Jesus and touch his wounds. I doubt the existence of any miraculous phenomena that can't be explained with science (i.e. physical resurrection of the dead, speaking of the tongues, prophecy, etc). All of the Bible can be written off as allegorical (St. Augustine believed the Creation in Genesis was an allegory, and this was CENTURIES before any in-depth scientific investigation in the origin of things). Maybe those who were "healed" in the Gospels and Acts were just removed of ill will within themselves, and the ones made to see were actually just removed of their ignorance. If all these naturally impossible phenomena are mere allegories, what of Christ? He'd just be another dead man among billions. And Christianity would have no importance or precedence over any other faith. Of course, you may have seen me cite references to the Bible when discussing morality. But if I knew the Qu'ran, Vedas and Upanishads I would have quoted them just as easily, because if Christianity is truly no different from them, then all other religions are just as valid. All religion becomes a means for people to function nicely and civily among each other. It would be, as Marx and others have said, a mere rationale for people to act the way they act to each other.

But I don't want to disbelieve anything I've learned! It's just that the Bible appears to crumble when put up against reality, as it were. Why do I feel compelled to believe? Is it because I was raised Christian? Is God real, or do I just want him to be? Do I just want purpose in this purposeless existence? We are born, we live, and we die--and the memory of our deeds vanish into the sea of time. Even the greatest individuals of our time had their stories obscured by myths and revisionist historians, such that no one can truly no what anyone did while they were alive. Why can't I just bring myself to be an Atheist or Muslim? What's wrong?

Isn't it enough that Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, animists and agnostics care about justice and goodness? They all have doctrines concerning how to act righteously to your fellow man. Do we really need to "convert" people who are acting justly and ruling their people wisely by the words they have been given?

[CDLviking]

I can't give you faith, but I will say this. If Christ did not rise from the dead, then the Apostles played the biggest practical joke in history by stealing the body of their dead friend, telling everyone that he was alive and that he was God, and leaving all they had behind to spread the news to distant lands, just to die for spreading this "practical joke." Who knows, maybe they were the greatest comedians of all time, because I don't know of any comedians today who would die for a practical joke.

[Ingemar]

Maybe the Apostles were very deluded.

I also have this I want to share, from a favorite blogger of mine who happens to be an Atheist. It has been edited for foul language and offensive political content.

More than a couple of people have written to me and asked questions like: "If you profess to be an atheist, to what do you ascribe your moral standards?", or "If you're an atheist, why do you use words like godless to denote evil people (like [redacted])?"

I once vowed that I wouldn't discuss this, because one's beliefs (or lack thereof) are a personal matter. But I need to address this issue, once and for all, with the following caveats:

1. If analytical discussion of religion offends you, don't read any further.
2. Don't even think of attempting to convert me, to anything.
3. I'm not going to get into long, didactic arguments about religious arcana -- I hate those kinds of arguments about ballistics, let alone matters of personal faith. So don't write to me with nitpicking criticism.
With that in mind, here goes.

I grew up in a religious household, and attended a private religious boarding school (St. John's College in Johannesburg, which is a high school, despite the name). We had daily chapel services, Mass on Sundays, and could attend a voluntary Mass every morning, if we chose (several boys did, but I didn't). "Divinity" (known as "religious instruction" over here) was not only a twice-a-week class, it was the sine qua non, the very foundation of our education.

One does not go through all of that without retaining some of the basic principles of religion.

What happened to me to change all that was a simple occurrence: the Anglican Church (for that was what we were) changed the language of the Mass from the King James Book of Common Prayer, to a more modern vernacular. I guess they thought that simplifying the beautiful old words would make them more comprehensible to the congregation.

Unfortunately, it did just that for me. Instead of mystery, and tradition going back hundreds of years, we had something that sounded like a text book.

And I realized, once the whole thing became more prosaic (in so many senses of the word), that the underlying principles and morality were the things to be instilled: the religion which accompanied it was just marketing.

How do you make a product desirable to the mass market, to people not familiar with the concept?
1. You say it's special. (In the case of the Jews, you limit the market size -- "only a few chosen ones can have it.")

2. You add little extra bits of packaging (confession, absolution, circumcision, compulsory prayer, clothing, etc.) to differentiate your product from the competition.

3. You offer features which other products don't have (redemption, access to a "special" Paradise, atonement, etc.).

4. You denigrate the competitors' products as being inferior, and/or forecast dire consequences for not using your product ("Tide removes those icky grass stains better than Surf", or "Infidels will roast in Hell for eternity!" -- same thing).

5. In extreme cases, you eliminate competitive user groups (jihad, Crusades, burnings at the stake, etc.).

And so on. If you read any book on marketing, and apply those principles to religion, any religion, you'll see that the entire structure (Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, Methodism etc.) are all packaging covering the same basic product: that which enables people to live together in society, without murdering, raping, pillaging or plundering one another.

Given that Western society, like it or not, is founded upon Judeo-Christian principle, it isn't surprising that I espouse most of those principles myself, as opposed to (say) Confucianism, even though the latter shares many of the same principles.

I happen to think that the Ten Commandments are an excellent precept for civilized existence. I don't care whether God wrote them on stone with lightning, or Moses with a jackhammer -- most of the concepts themselves are excellent ("don't murder, don't tell lies, don't have sex with your friend's wife" etc.) -- and adherence to those simple principles ensures that society will run quite smoothly, as Western society has demonstrated. The Christians added a few good features, such as forgiveness and tolerance, which have also served society well.

Of course, all things taken to extremes can lead to unhappiness, as happened with the Inquisition, "peace at all costs" and similar foolishness, but we all know that can happen.

I saw a phrase recently which pretty much encapsulates my thinking: "cultural Christian", in other words, the product without the packaging or marketing.

And here's my take on the whole thing: I don't care about religion. I don't care what makes people decent and honorable citizens instead of loathsome amoral scumbags like [redacted].

If you ascribe your rectitude to Jaweh, Jesus, Shiva, Allah or Og the God of the Forest, it's all the same to me. If your will to live is sustained by the thought that a kind and caring God is looking after you, good for you. If you treat other people with respect and dignity, and say that Jesus Christ is your inspiration, that's just great.

In other words [mixed metaphor alert], I don't care by what name you call the man who changes the water in your goldfish bowl, as long as you live your life as a decent human being who doesn't harm the lives of other human beings.

If I call [redacted] "godless", it's because they're acting like people without principle -- and most people understand that "godless" means "without moral compass". It's just rhetorical shorthand.

But I reject utterly the notion, for example, that "all goodness comes from Jesus Christ" or any such chauvinism. Kindness and mercy existed long before Christ walked the Earth, just as sweetness existed before Coca-Cola was invented. Codification does not bestow exclusivity, and philosophy isn't governed by patent law.

So don't play gotcha games with me: "Aha! You're really just a Christian!" because that's patent [redacted].

I follow basic Judeo-Christian principles because they work, not because of some incendiary bush episode in the distant past.

Now you know.

What do you think?

[Lehn]

Oh Inggy...

I usually follow my gut instinct of matter such as this; and maybe I should follow it and Bible thump you, but I don't think you'd listen to me.

All I can say is that, to me, living is for Christ. But when I die, if I find that all of this --- everything that I've every believed in is nothing but another broken promise to add onto my string of heart breaks and broken dreams... I'll still think that living for Christ was worth it all.

Sometimes the journey and the choices that you make during it matters more then the destination.

[Master Kenzo]

This is in Prayer Room because you want prayer, right? I just want to make sure

I'm no theologian, so I'm not going to get in a debate, but I remember back when I went to a Benny Hinn crusade a year ago...not only was it amazing, but seeing people get healed was awesome. Hundreds of them! Air Canada Center was so full the set up a giant TV outside, and people were pressing in on the windows to see the TV screens lining the hallways...there were just too many people there and too many healed for it to be fake. But that was my faith-affirmer. God knows where your button is, and if you pray for faith, He will eventually give it to you. The mustard seed is one of the the tiniest seeds in the world, but it grows into a big tree.

That's the best I can do for you, Ingemar. (I almost called you Pete there...)

[CDLviking]

What do you think?

I think it is entirely possible for athiests and non-christians to live moral lives, my own father is an athiest. I also agree that Judeo-Christian ethics are the basis for society because they work the best. That doesn't in any way disprove God. Eventually everybody has to have faith in something that they don't particularly understand, learning is impossible without this. For me personally, as a Catholic, the most profound thing that secures my faith is the Eucharist. Through the millenia there have been many eucharistic miracles, as well as my own mystic experiences with it. I don't think our faith should be placed in miracles, but they are there for us when we doubt.

[ShiroiHikari]

Okay, wanting prayer is fine, and I encourage you to ask for it. But let me remind you all of something. This is the Prayer Room here, so let's not start a big debate please. If you guys want to debate, you can certainly take it to PMs or off-forums, okay?

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Ingemar]

Well, since this is a prayer forum, pray that (if God is even half as real as anyone says he is) God will, any time before I die, reveal himself to me in a way that I will never disbelieve again.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I will pray Iggy. You aren't the worst Christian in this forum. I think the same things at times. Remember the word "christian" means "Christ Fallower." Don't look to any other source than the God Breathed Bible. Dont go to anything un perfect, like people like us.
I pray that God gives you the faith you need to go on with you life.

The Christians added a few good features, such as forgiveness and tolerance, which have also served society well.

risists saying anything about that phrase for fear of getting kivked out of the CAA

PS I have a strong feeling that your Athiest friend needs the Lord.

[uc pseudonym]

First off, on topic, I'll pray for you... though not for exactly what you asked for.

It would be a bad idea to systematically respond to your friend's argument (though I'm itching to), as we've already made it clear we don't want an argument brewing anywhere or especially here. However, I do want to say one thing about this:

Well, since this is a prayer forum, pray that (if God is even half as real as anyone says he is) God will, any time before I die, reveal himself to me in a way that I will never disbelieve again.

Note that you basically describe the situation with the Old Testament Israelites (even if you call it only an allegory, the following purpose stands). Did they ever have unshakable faith? They had God in a column of fire, working miracles, speaking to them almost directly, etc. And they're some of the most unfaithful people ever. Would your problem actually be solved if you got a message from God (though I won't deny it could)?

[Rashiir]

Hey, man, I used to struggle with miracles too... It is kind of hard to believe in them, sometimes. But then I realized that if God could make all creation out of nothing, he could certainly change water into wine. And, if you think about it, it's actually easier to believe that God made it all out of nothing than that it all happened by accident (For me, at least).

I'll definitely pray for you.

[Kireihana]

This will sound childish, but. When I was little, my dog got run over by a Chevy Suburban, right in the abdomen. The vet said that logically, he shouldn't have survived, but he did. And he's living now at a ripe old age of 10, which is a lot for a dog of his breed. My dogs are some of the most important things in my life, and to me, that was a miracle....

And that one man, in only 3 years preaching in just a tiny portion of the world, could ignite what is now the largest religion in the world - once again, that to me is a miracle. The children who dance in the aisles at my church, because they believe without question, they are miracles.

I don't think it's that you're not seeing miracles, I think you're not looking for them. I wish that like little children, we could all believe in God without question, but I guess when we get older we can't live like that. We all wonder about our faith sometimes, but when it comes down to it, that's why it's called faith, and not fact.

As my uncle, who is a youth pastor, replied to a kid in his group who was questioning the infallibility of God, "I can't prove it, but I believe in it so much that I would die for it."

I'll pray for you and I hope you'll come through this all right, but don't think you're the only one who has issues with faith. Everyone questions God sometimes, but really, what do we have to lose by believing in Him?

[Spiritsword]

Ingemar, I know how you feel. You are not alone in your struggles with faith. I've come a long way since my days of agnositcism, but I still have a ways to go. Some of us just have brains that are wired to analyze, to seek proof and evidence. That would include me, and Thomas as well, and it sounds like yourself. But as Kireihana said, there comes a point where we have to have faith. That was tough for me, but it's gotten easier the more I walk with God. And yes, God HAS given me some signs in my life. He never visited me personally (physically), but things have happened in my life that were beyond chance, and God used those things to bring me closer to Him. You need to be open to those things. They may not be blatant miracles, but they WILL point to the existence of God.

I will pray for you.

[true_noir_chloe]

I will definitely pray for you, Ingemar. ^_^ I know you are always searching and I hope one day you find what you're looking for.

Okay, I can't resist saying one thing: Everything you wrote and the atheist wrote I realized had to do with "religion." Religion has been around since the beginning of civilization, as you mentioned many of the earliest religions and their texts in your first post on this thread.

What I know to be true is Christ. He is not a "religion," He is... Who He is. That is why all other religions tell you ways to Heaven and things to do, and all the other marketing strategies your atheist friend stated. Yes, to walk as a Christian would sound like a list of great marketing strategies.

Christ has no marketing strategy for salvation. It's simply - believe. Everyone here said something which makes perfect sense, even your atheist friend. However, I agree with UC, in the fact that no matter what you see or hear, it will mean nothing to you. Faith can't be proven, it's intangible.

Otherwise, why wouldn't everyone in the world fall for this brilliant marketing strategy and jump on the Christian band wagon?

I really hope you can find rest deep in your soul, Ingemar, and I will keep praying for the Spirit to move in your heart, so that you can find the security you seek.

[bigsleepj]

I'll certainly pray that you (this is a prayer forum) but it does not matter if you have a lot of faith; your faith can be as big as a mustard-seed. Faith is believing without seeing and it may be the hardest thing to do. If you want to believe you can try to read the apologetics by CS Lewis or GK Chesterton. Lewis' "God in the Dock" is apparently a good help and have helped many intellectuals remain Christians.

I haven't read "God in the Dock" because some of Lewis' appologetics tend to go over my head. His fiction is easier...

Actually, I consider myself the worst Christian on this forum. I struggle to keep my faith as well, but I know for a fact that if you treat Christianity as a moral system or a philosophy then you're not on the right path. It's something a bit more than that. It's a reality for me and for some. I can only pray that you come to see that...

[Ingemar]

If you all want to know why I've seemed so.... disturbed lately, it's because right now we're looking at the history and spread of Christianity in Humanities. (As the name suggests, this is a secular class).

As you know, the first missionaries didn't have any New Testament to work with. All they had are their opinions about who Jesus was, and such. And I know there were maaaaany different opinions about who he is, or was--some say he was not a man at all, some say he was not God, some say that anyone can be "better" than Jesus--and of course there's the Gnostics. And then, there's the whole process of making the canon. Since the Bible is a compilation of man's writing, I can't believe that they had God's interests in mind when adding and redacting to the canon. Maybe they were fitting scripture to their own ends. But then again, these secular classes (I think) work from a premise that God does not exist and that religious leaders seek their own ends.

Today, I just read a portion of The Gospel of Barnabas. Surprisingly, Jesus in this account:

1. Considers those who do not obey the Law of Moses as worse than dogs
2. Says that he is not God or equal to him

And this is just one of 17 gospels that didn't make it into the final cut. How do we know that the Christianity purported by Paul and Peter is the right one, that the other Christians who had problems with their beliefs were wrong and that Jesus is who we were taught he is?

The Bible is so mangled, obfuscated and distorted by the hand of man that I just don't find it believable. Does this mean I can lie, kill, commit adultery and such? No, that would be swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. I should still be good (I guess), but I can no longer attribute my good deeds to Christ.

If there is a point in God allowing man to make such a haphazardly arranged anthology (that is, assuming God as we know him exists), maybe it's to show us that we're all wrong. And if this grace of which Paul speaks is true, then we'd all get into heaven anyway. Thus, we are wrong to send missionaries to countries where being a Christian is an offense against the family, or the state, or is viewed as an agent of Western imperialism. We'd only cause harm.

But if this whole grace thing is true, then any wrong we cause by missions is not so wrong after all... do you see where I'm going here? I'm confused. I guess the only way I'll know what's true is when I die. I find that utterly dissatisfying.

[Shinja]

there are reasons for the partictular books in the bible, but the reason why we believe the Bible and in Jesus is because the bible speaks to us and conferms the truth of Christ. and the apostels and early preachers didnt just have thier opinions, they had the scriptures that proficied the coming of Christ, and how he would be killed for our sins. i also will pray for you.

oh, and there are alot of bum gospels, you should research it before you take it as truth

[uc pseudonym]

Inegmar... don't take this arguing thing too far. Please, we're all just a bit tired of it here in the Prayer forum (by "all" I mean the mods). I'm struggling between wanting to close this thread as a moderator, or help you as a Christian. I will definitely refrain from full argument, but...

As you know, the first missionaries didn't have any New Testament to work with. All they had are their opinions about who Jesus was, and such.

How first are you talking about? Some of Paul's letters are only written about two years after the death of Jesus, and they make some pretty clear statements about Jesus as Lord.

And this is just one of 17 gospels that didn't make it into the final cut. How do we know that the Christianity purported by Paul and Peter is the right one, that the other Christians who had problems with their beliefs were wrong and that Jesus is who we were taught he is?

Those compiling the cannon did make efforts to choose only the gospels written best by eyewitnesses. The author of the Gospel of Barnabus wasn't Barnabus, by the way. In Jewish culture biographies were often named after a person related to the focus, regardless of the author. Our four Gospels are written by their title authors, however.

Of course, if you don't believe that God had anything to do with the choosing of the cannon, you could say those people just chose what gospels they liked best. However, we do have evidence about their processes... and furthermore, if you reach this point, doesn't it boil down to nothing but an issue of faith? You could have faith that God guided the initial compilers, or you could have faith that a being such as God would have nothing to do with the matter.

I realize that's not a complete argument, but I don't feel that I really can argue as such in this thread. Please, from now on, can we keep this solely to prayer issues?

[cbwing0]

Since the mods don't want an argument, I will not systematically answer everything in your post (although I think that some sort of response is necessary for the weaker Christians who may stumble upon this thread). What I will do is pray for you.

I will also say one thing about "evidence:"

I guess the only way I'll know what's true is when I die. I find that utterly dissatisfying.

If you take the term "know" in a hard empirical sense, then yes, you won't know the truth until you die. However, hard empiricism fails as an account of the world, and as a theory of knowledge. We know many things without seeing them with our eyes. For example, we cannot "see" propositions, yet we know that they are true or false based on reasoning.

More importantly, we believe many things on the testimony of others. All of the material you are drawing upon to doubt your faith (teachers in a class, bloggers online) are sources of testimony that you believe to be true without the benefit of sense perception of the objects of the objects of study. If you are going to throw out the testimony of the bible on these grounds, you must also throw out the very grounds for doubting it. The same thing applies to earlier statement: "Even the greatest individuals of our time had their stories obscured by myths and revisionist historians, such that no one can truly no what anyone did while they were alive." That is simply not true. The only way we could know that some of the things written about people were myths is by knowing certain facts that disprove the mythical accounts.

I will probably PM a more complete response in the near future.

[uc pseudonym]

I would suggest you do so, cbwing0. Meanwhile, discussion in this thread must stop. I was toeing the line by responding to Ingemar (for the purpose of some response for the sake of weaker Christians), but now it has to be over. For everyone. If you want to pray, go ahead.

[wilson1112000]

<edit by uc pseudonym: seriously, no more argument. You want to argue with Ingemar, do so via PM. I don't want to close this thread.>

[YesIExist]

Check out this book: http://www.religion1.com/The_New_Evidence_That_Demands_A_Verdict_Fully_Updated_To_Answer_The_Questions_Challenging_Christians_Today_0785243631.html

[you can very obviously see the title of the book]