E3 2009

[Jingo Jaden]

Maybe so, but this is also a design thing. Look at her robe, pretty metalic in a way on her shoulders and so, much like the form on the edges of the hilt of the sword. She carries the same color as it, where her legs come seems blocked as if there was a sword shaft seperating them from her body and the gem has a similar enough shape to some versions of the sword design.

http://www.zfans.de/zfans/dates/zelda10/Wallpaper/1280x1024/4.jpg

My guess it may be the remains of the guardian of courage or whatever. If she is the one that gave Link the fire and ice arrows, then she may be a guardian of some kind. The yellow lines on her kinda reminds me of the midna design.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I just hope they abastain from the twillight princess formula, but they seem to have grown more addicted too them. If anything, it looks like a spirit form of the master sword. So I am guessing they will really prioritise the swordplay which is great, but I am also guessing that the 'half dark' factor they stuck too in TP will be built more upon which does not please me.

That formula is a formula which has really existed since the early years of the franchise. LttP really started the idea of "two worlds" in the Zelda Franchise, and it's a formula the main games in the series has rarely abstained from. Ocarina had the future, Wind Waker had below the seas, TP had the Twilight Realm.

[Jingo Jaden]

That formula is a formula which has really existed since the early years of the franchise. LttP really started the idea of "two worlds" in the Zelda Franchise, and it's a formula the main games in the series has rarely abstained from. Ocarina had the future, Wind Waker had below the seas, TP had the Twilight Realm.

Not the point, by half dark I mean half way done darkness. Zelda OOT had some real darkness in it, Ganon fooling everyone, slaughtering an entire capital city, backstory on his visit to the palace and the entire gerudo connection. It created a character and it had some real mysticism in it too.

In TP, they made him into a lame puppeter that lived on few words and even fewer actions. Nothing spesial, pluss, the lamest subordinate in Zelda's history got more limelight than him. A light in the darkness is that at least we got too see his neck snap. The mysticism was more or less predictable, the best point in the entire game in my mind is when Link sort of dreams a pretty weird dream. That was awesome.

Pluss, Ganondorf acts pretty much as a cat in the final battle. I mean, the fishing rod makes him basically useless.

[Nate]

Meh. I figure that if they release the next Zelda on the Wii they'll require you to use the Wii remote for swordplay without any alternate control setups. Meaning I probably won't buy it. I've already tried Dragon Quest Swords and found out that swinging the Wii remote to do swordplay is absolutely atrocious.

If they allow you to use a GC controller to play it though then I'll probably get it.

[Jingo Jaden]

Meh. I figure that if they release the next Zelda on the Wii they'll require you to use the Wii remote for swordplay without any alternate control setups. Meaning I probably won't buy it. I've already tried Dragon Quest Swords and found out that swinging the Wii remote to do swordplay is absolutely atrocious.

If they allow you to use a GC controller to play it though then I'll probably get it.

My bet is that they will require you to use the wii motion sensor pluss.

[Nate]

Yeah forget that noise. I didn't play Phantom Hourglass either because of the control stuff. Also I heard that one temple was annoying as crap.

Besides if the art style stays the same as TP's, I certainly won't be missing much. I prefer Wind Waker's Zelda to TP's any day.

[Bobtheduck]

I prefer the OOoT / Twilight Princess somewhat more realistic style to Wind Waker... Nintendo effectively split their fanbase when they made WW...

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Meh. I figure that if they release the next Zelda on the Wii they'll require you to use the Wii remote for swordplay without any alternate control setups. Meaning I probably won't buy it. I've already tried Dragon Quest Swords and found out that swinging the Wii remote to do swordplay is absolutely atrocious.

If they allow you to use a GC controller to play it though then I'll probably get it.

Not played swords myself, but the control style worked for TP, if it just didn't feel like I was swinging a sword. It felt like I occasionally had to twitch my wrist.

[Nate]

The problem with DQS is that it's near impossible to pull off a diagonal slash...the game likes to register it as a horizontal slash, or worse, as nothing at all. When some of the mini-games are built around the requirement of you being able to pull off a diagonal slash in less than a second, it can be frustrating.

I think my problem is that I believe motion controls should be an enhancement to traditional play, not a replacement. I don't want swinging the remote to take the place of pushing a button for sword attacks in Zelda. However, using the remote to carefully aim your bow, THAT is something I completely support.

I know I'm the minority, and it sucks. I like Zelda but I don't want to put up with strange control schemes to play it. Again, part of the reason I didn't get Phantom Hourglass, despite that I love the art style.

Nintendo is trying to fix something that wasn't broken. Traditional controllers worked fine, but Nintendo had to try and convince us that no, they're not any good! You need this OTHER control scheme, it's better! Seriously who wants to push buttons? Not YOU! I understand that it works great for pulling in the casual crowd. And y'know, I can understand how using it for Wii Sports is a lot of fun! But not EVERY game needs it. It's good for certain things, but it doesn't need to always be used. I like steak but I'm not going to put it in everything I eat, you know what I mean?

That's why I'm also not impressed by Project Natal at all. Now, I'm impressed by it on a TECHNICAL level. What they've managed to do is actually pretty amazing. The question is, "What can this do for gaming?" Well, as far as I can see it, not much. The most I can see is for a bunch of crappy minigames like the Wii comes out with all the time, which is lame. Or using it to control your dashboard, because y'know, using a directional pad and buttons was just AWFUL! [/sarcasm]

I dunno. To me nothing really replaces buttons. Once you try to get rid of those you have very few options, none of which are very accurate.

[Peanut]

I think my problem is that I believe motion controls should be an enhancement to traditional play, not a replacement. I don't want swinging the remote to take the place of pushing a button for sword attacks in Zelda. However, using the remote to carefully aim your bow, THAT is something I completely support.

This is why I think No More Heroes is the best game on the Wii in terms of its control scheme. It actually uses the buttons and control stick while leaving the motion controls to your stance and finishing moves. So yeah, I agree with Nate...

[blkmage]

Outside of everything having to do with Wii Sports, I feel like Nintendo's games have avoided forcing unnatural control schemes into their games. Usually, it's Miyamoto coming up with a game and then the console's control scheme is designed for whatever he's come up with.

I mean, all of this time, we've been focused on Zelda as some sort of ominous sign that we're going to be flailing our arms in order to game from now on. But that hasn't been the case at all so far. In both Mario and Zelda, the most you do is waggle the controller a bit. That's a far cry from having to swing in a precise fashion and until Miyamoto says that his control scheme has unreasonable gestures, I'm reluctant to preemptively hate on it.

As for alternative control schemes in general, I approached them initially with as much skepticism as you. That changed when I played TWEWY. TWEWY is absolutely a game that would be impossible to replicate with a traditional control scheme. What's more is that TWEWY is a JRPG, which I doubt most people would label as a candidate for an alternative control scheme. But combined with its visual style, it managed to be one of the most innovative and original games I played last year.

I'd say that the shift from 2D to 3D is analogous to shifting control schemes. It's all about how you translate games from one to the other. How do we translate 2D platformers into a 3D environment? How do we do that for fighting games? How do we do that for JRPGs? For some, the shift requires a lot more thinking, but it can be done. It depends on how much the developer wants to get it right. And some developers recognize that it's better not to take the jump at all.

So no, I don't think it's right to think that it's impossible for touch screens or motion controls or whatever to replace traditional controls.

[Nate]

Usually, it's Miyamoto coming up with a game and then the console's control scheme is designed for whatever he's come up with.

...which didn't happen with Twilight Princess, because it was going to be a Gamecube game originally. Until Miyamoto decided the best way to sell a bunch of Wiis on launch day was to delay the game to also be made for the Wii. Meaning that the motion controls were shoehorned in at the last second. Which is yet another reason why I refused to buy the Wii version.

In both Mario and Zelda, the most you do is waggle the controller a bit. That's a far cry from having to swing in a precise fashion and until Miyamoto says that his control scheme has unreasonable gestures, I'm reluctant to preemptively hate on it.

As Yahtzee said, all it does is replace random button mashing with random stick-waggling. That's the point I'm trying to make.

I'm not saying Zelda will force you to do epic maneuvers in your living room to simply swing a sword. DQS forces you to do that, and it suffers for it. However, what I AM saying is that if I'm going to have to do something that is repetitive, I don't want it to be physically tiring. I can press buttons for hours. I can only wave my wrist around for a little while before I go "Man my wrist is kind of sore." When I'm in a big fight and I need lots sword work, I'd rather mash a button a bunch then frantically wave a controller. Plus, buttons would provide a greater input response to the system than waving around.

TWEWY is absolutely a game that would be impossible to replicate with a traditional control scheme. What's more is that TWEWY is a JRPG, which I doubt most people would label as a candidate for an alternative control scheme.

Whilte TWEWY is a JRPG by definition, being an RPG made in Japan (which technically is all that would be qualified), the term JRPG is mostly meant specifically for turn-based RPGs like Dragon Quest...which is something TWEWY is most certainly NOT (also the reason I didn't buy it, I hate real-time combat).

And I'm not saying it's a bad game. I'm sure it's great. Just not to my tastes. The control scheme has little to do with it, it's the style of play. If it was turn-based and was able to implement this control scheme, I'd be all for it.

And sometimes, the controls work AWESOME. Take for example, Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents. Those games are awesome, and I love them. And they wouldn't work with a d-pad and buttons. Kirby Canvas Curse is another great example, a fantastic game that I adored.

And it's the same with the Wii. Trauma Center, World of Goo, these are games that really take full advantage of the Wii's control scheme, and they rock for it. But yes, the problem is that Nintendo IS shoehorning them into places they don't NEED to be. Twilight Princess being example one. There is ZERO reason to have to swing a remote instead of pressing a button to use the sword. Not even an iota of a reason except "Well hell, we have this control scheme, I guess we should use it somehow!" No no no NO. That is BAD thinking. You don't put something in a game just because "It's there."

And Nintendo is perfectly capable of ignoring their own control schemes too! So it's not like they're trying to prove themselves right. You need look no further than New Super Mario Bros. for the DS for proof of that. How much did you use the touch screen in that game? Pretty much not at all! You can store a spare powerup down there and touch it to use it but that's basically IT. They knew NSMB didn't need touch screen controls, and didn't use them. That's AWESOME. It shows intelligence on their part.

However, I am worried that their intelligence won't carry over to this Zelda title since Nintendo is going to think "People want to swing the remote like a sword!" No, Nintendo, we don't, and I'll thank you to quit treating the average gamer like he's seven.

I'd say that the shift from 2D to 3D is analogous to shifting control schemes.

I wouldn't, as you're comparing a visual representation to input. That's like saying shifting from VGA to HD monitors is like shifting from a QWERTY keyboard to a DVORAK keyboard. It's not the same. The only reason we didn't have 3D in early games is simply because the systems didn't have the processing power to handle it. Motion controls were around in the NES days, look at the Power Glove...THAT went over quite well, didn't it?

They even played around with the "no controller" thing in the NES days. There was a little peripheral called "U-Force" that you waved your hand over and infrared sensors translated it into controller stuff in the game. Its tagline was "YOU are the controller."

That bombed so bad and everyone who uses it says it sucks.

So no, I don't think it's right to think that it's impossible for touch screens or motion controls or whatever to replace traditional controls.

I do, because people like tactile feedback. People complained when the touch screens on the iPhone didn't make a clicking noise when they pressed it. That should be a pretty big indication that people NEED a response. Having nothing in your hands and waving them around, is not going to work. Period. It works with the Wii because you're holding something.

If you had Wii Sports with Project Natal, and said "No controller!" and told someone to play Wii Tennis with just a clenched fist and nothing in their hand, they're going to hate it. Even if it's just an inanimate carbon rod, they're going to want SOMETHING in their hand. It's how humans are wired.

Plus, you have physical limitations. What about people in wheelchairs? What about people in hospital beds? What about people who live on the third floor of an apartment building? Yeah, I'm sure their neighbors underneath them are going to LOVE having a 230 pound guy jumping around like an idiot at 1 in the morning.

My living room is very small. Maybe ten feet from the TV to the door. Plus, there's lots of furniture. The TV is also lower than waist height in its stand. Simply put, I do NOT have the room to play a game that's going to require me to have 15 feet of empty space and be at eye level. It's impossible.

That's the problem. It IS impossible for these control schemes to replace controllers, but developers aren't going to realize that until they fail over and over and over again. Just like the Power Glove, just like U-Force, and hey, remember when the Wii was supposed to be God's holy light shining down on video game consoles and it could do EVERYTHING? And now Nintendo has to invent the WiiMotion Plus just to do the things they claimed the Wii could do in the FIRST place.

Give me a regular controller any day.

[Bobtheduck]

I don't have a problem with some motion controls. Sometimes the motion controls really do make the experience better. Folklore, for instance, is 10x more fun when you YANK the souls out than if you just pushed buttons or did a button based QTE... It's just visceral.

I just don't want alternate controllers replacing real ones. I'm all about eyetoy and DDR and rock band and even the wiimote+nunchuck and sixaxis tilt, but if they got rid of traditional controllers, it would suck.

If you had Wii Sports with Project Natal, and said "No controller!" and told someone to play Wii Tennis with just a clenched fist and nothing in their hand, they're going to hate it. Even if it's just an inanimate carbon rod, they're going to want SOMETHING in their hand. It's how humans are wired.

I'm not defending Sony's far-too-late wand here (I would have been if it released last year or the year before because they WERE developing it in 2005), really, but that's exactly what the eyetoy dev working on the wand said. Some things can be done without a controller and some things can't. I'm still a fan of the kind without, though.

[TriezGamer]

For what it's worth (not much), I'm just happy Nate has put into words what has bothered me about the Wii for so long.

[Bobtheduck]

http://gamer.blorge.com/2009/06/07/exposed-natel-milo-smoke-and-mirrors-by-peter-molyneux/

Looks like Lionhead pulled a Killzone 2 with Milo.

[ADXC]

@ Nate- Yes, all of that is completely true. Most gamers are not people who want to move their bodies around a whole lot. There are games for this like DDR. Wii Sport was good because it also acted as a workout or for parties(Where a lot of movement can happen.), but do most gamers want a workout when they play their favorite RPG? I don't think so(Because usually when gamers sit down to play an RPG it is to get away from the world into a world other than their own with a different story and rules.). And you're right about the mindless repetitiveness of just swinging your Wii remote around. It is just too tiring(Id rather press buttons as you said.). Instead of working on hard to manuever controls, there should be work on the gameplay(And story as well, make sure it fits gameplay.). Like puzzles and challenges or a unique battle system like from Shadow Hearts or any other game you like. Im kinda tired of the usual button mashing too. Don't sacrifice strategy for button mashing. Which is why I prefer Fire Emblem games alot because there really isn't any button mashing.

@ Bob-Yeah, I did like Folklore. I agree with you on the control thing there. Id rather yank souls then press a button to yank souls because it makes it more realistic while still not draining all my energy because you used the controller to move around.

But I don't like the idea of a sword movement. I wouldn't last 30 minutes.

[Robin Firedrake]

Wait... *confused beyond comprehension* Could someone give me a list of the names of the new games so I can google them?

[Jingo Jaden]

Wait... *confused beyond comprehension* Could someone give me a list of the names of the new games so I can google them?

White Knight Chronicles, MAG, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Tony Hawk Ride, Rabbids Go Home, LOTR: Aragon’s Quest, Motorstorm: Arctic Edge, C.O.P.: The Recruit, Splinter Cell: Conviction, Mass Effect 2, Prototype, Shadow Complex, Overlord II, No More Heroes 2, Blur, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Metroid: Other M, The Conduit, Grand Slam Tennis: Venues, The Saboteur, Secret of Monkey Island: Special Edition, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Alan Wake, Lego Rock Band, Halo Reach, Forza 3, Left 4 Dead 2, Final Fantasy XIII, Halo: ODST, Crackdown 2, Golden Sun, Wii Sports Resort, Zelda: Spirit Tracks, Fallout 3: Point Lookout, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, Little Big Planet PSP, Ratchet & Clank Future, MGS: Peace Walker, Red Steel 2, Prof. Layton and the Diabolical Box, Kingdom Hearts: 358/2, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, Dead Space: Exctraction, Section 8, Wet, Brutal Legend, Army of Two: The 40th Day, Dragon Age, Assassin’s Creed 2, Gravity Crash, Demon’s Souls, Resident Evil: Darkside Chronicles, FUEL Launcher, All Points Bulletin, Lego Harry Potter, DIRT 2, Battlefield 1943, Need for Speed: SHIFT, Brink, Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing, The Legend of Starfy, Modern Warfare 2, Virtua Tennis, SOCOM PSP, Jak and Daxter: The Lost Frontier, Rogue Warrior, Dante’s Inferno, Beatles Rock Band, Need for Speed: Nitro og Joy Ride.

[Bobtheduck]

White Knight Chronicles, MAG, Super Mario Galaxy 2, Tony Hawk Ride, Rabbids Go Home, LOTR: Aragon’s Quest, Motorstorm: Arctic Edge, C.O.P.: The Recruit, Splinter Cell: Conviction, Mass Effect 2, Prototype, Shadow Complex, Overlord II, No More Heroes 2, Blur, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Metroid: Other M, The Conduit, Grand Slam Tennis: Venues, The Saboteur, Secret of Monkey Island: Special Edition, Batman: Arkham Asylum, Alan Wake, Lego Rock Band, Halo Reach, Forza 3, Left 4 Dead 2, Final Fantasy XIII, Halo: ODST, Crackdown 2, Golden Sun, Wii Sports Resort, Zelda: Spirit Tracks, Fallout 3: Point Lookout, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, Little Big Planet PSP, Ratchet & Clank Future, MGS: Peace Walker, Red Steel 2, Prof. Layton and the Diabolical Box, Kingdom Hearts: 358/2, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, Dead Space: Exctraction, Section 8, Wet, Brutal Legend, Army of Two: The 40th Day, Dragon Age, Assassin’s Creed 2, Gravity Crash, Demon’s Souls, Resident Evil: Darkside Chronicles, FUEL Launcher, All Points Bulletin, Lego Harry Potter, DIRT 2, Battlefield 1943, Need for Speed: SHIFT, Brink, Sonic & Sega All Stars Racing, The Legend of Starfy, Modern Warfare 2, Virtua Tennis, SOCOM PSP, Jak and Daxter: The Lost Frontier, Rogue Warrior, Dante’s Inferno, Beatles Rock Band, Need for Speed: Nitro og Joy Ride.

Holy giant wall of text, Batman!

But impressive.

[Robin Firedrake]

Mario galaxy two looks like absolute win.

[KumaruRockz]

Lego Rock Band. Wow. lol.

[blkmage]

I just realized that no one has mentioned the Game of the Year for 2009, Scribblenauts. Scribblenauts is a DS game that's developed by 5TH Cell. It's a puzzle game where you solve puzzles by summoning objects by entering the name of the object you want to summon by writing it on the touch screen or using the keyboard on the touch screen. What's cool is that the developers have gone to extreme lengths to include just about anything you can think of as long as it's not vulgar, is a concrete object, and isn't a proper noun.

You don't believe, do you? Well, Joystiq ran a ten word challenge on it. The list was Internet, tattoo, air, molecule, Scribblenauts, narwhal, lutefisk, plumbob, stanchion, and Joystiq. It got 9/10. What didn't it get? Plumbob. What's a plumbob? It's the green crystal that appears over a Sim's head in The Sims.

8. Plumbob -- No dice! The game's lead designer was hanging over our shoulder as we entered in this unrecognized word. He quickly asked what it was, pulled out his phone and feverishly sent some unknown party a text message. "Okay," he said. "It'll be in the final product."

Still need convincing? You won't be able to outsmart it with your library of Internet memes, because, well, here's an example. How about mythological creatures? They've got you covered.

And the puzzles? Well,

At one point, we encountered a level with deadly sharks in the water between you and your goal. It took us a few tries to figure out the best solution as we continued to get eaten over and over, before realizing those same dolphins that we used earlier would actually fight the sharks on our behalf. That, or you could just drop a toaster in the water and electrocute them to death.

And,

3. Ludwig was tasked with navigating through a zombie apocalypse to reach a helicopter with his brains in tact. He attempted to hold the undead off with a wall, but he couldn't get build it fast enough to hold off the horde. He whipped out a shotgun, but their numbers were too large to dispatch with a firearm.

Naturally, his next instinct was to craft a time machine, which took him into the prehistoric ages. Of course, he was surrounded by unfriendly dinos, so he made a robot dinosaur, which he then mounted and used to destroy his scaly adversaries.

Who else is pre-ordering this right now?

[Bobtheduck]

I just realized that no one has mentioned the Game of the Year for 2009, Scribblenauts. Scribblenauts is a DS game that's developed by 5TH Cell. It's a puzzle game where you solve puzzles by summoning objects by entering the name of the object you want to summon by writing it on the touch pad or using the keyboard. What's cool is that the developers have gone to extreme lengths to include just about anything you can think of as long as it's not vulgar, is a concrete object, and isn't a proper noun.

You don't believe, do you? Well, Joystiq ran a ten word challenge on it. The list was Internet, tattoo, air, molecule, Scribblenauts, narwhal, lutefisk, plumbob, stanchion, and Joystiq. It got 9/10. What didn't it get? Plumbob. What's a plumbob? It's the green crystal that appears over a Sim's head in The Sims.


Still need convincing? You won't be able to outsmart it with your library of Internet memes, because, well, here's an example. How about mythological creatures? They've got you covered.

And the puzzles? Well,

And,


Who else is pre-ordering this right now?

If this game could read my writing... Hahah, my mom sure can't... and neither can places I tend to apply for work. It's why I became so proficient at typing.

[ich1990]

Andrew created a teleporter in an attempt to instantly apparate to the Starite -- instead, it took him to a medieval world where he was besieged by shadowy assassins. He tried distracting them with candy -- really, Andrew? -- then created a fairly anachronistic nuke. The nuke didn't detonate, however, so andrew created a laser rifle to take out the assassins. One of his lasers grazed the aforementioned WMD, and blew up the entire level.

If I had a DS I would preorder this without a second of hesitation.

If this game could read my writing... Hahah, my mom sure can't... and neither can places I tend to apply for work. It's why I became so proficient at typing.

If you watch some of the videos you can see that you use the DS to type out words using an on screen keyboard.

[Robin Firedrake]

I will buy this. It sounds absurdly awesome. IT BETTER HAVE DRAGONS OR I SHALL KILL THEM! I wonder if they have shoop da whoop... Or Chuck Norris.

[Bobtheduck]

If you watch some of the videos you can see that you use the DS to type out words using an on screen keyboard.

I did watch some videos... 2, in fact. No typing involved. Writing each letter seperately, but no typing. I guess if you have a link to a video with typing, that'd be cool.