What To Do With Bad Images In Mangas?

[Roy Mustang]

In the Sistine Chapel, which is a church by the way (hence the term "chapel") there is a fantastic painting by Michelangelo called "The Creation of Adam" depicting God creating Adam in the Garden of Eden. Since Adam was naked when he was created, and felt no shame, in the same way Adam is naked in the painting. In the church.

Since, you brought up the talk about Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel. I have to quote this from Animaniacs in the ep where they meet Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel.

Yakko: Wait a minute. You expect us poor, innocent children to climb up dangerous scaffolding and paint naked people all over a church?
Wakko, Yakko, Dot: We'll do it.
Yakko: But we're not doing it for art. We're not doing it for the sake of money. No! We're doing it because we love painting naked people.

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[font="Book Antiqua"]Col. Roy Mustang
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[Mr. SmartyPants]

Genesis 3. Adam and Eve were already wearing clothes, and yet God gave them new ones. Since God went ahead and gave them different clothes, we may conclude that he didn't approve of the first set. Besides, it's enough to point out the fact that they were ashamed of being naked only when they gained the knowledge of sin.

I will say that this is a logical fallacy right here. You cannot conclude with enough evidence that God disapproved of something simply because he offered something that was different from what was originally there.

The way I see it is that God gave them new clothes because the old ones were not sufficient to keep them warm, not because he disapproved of their old ones. (We all know that fur and animal hide would work better as clothing compared to leaves)

Notice how he did not command them to change outfits.

Also note that Adam and Eve made lots of babies (At least two) in their day (i.e. they probably had lots and lots and lots of sex), so I don't really understand what you mean by saying that nudity is unbiblical.

[Prince Asbel]

[quote="Tsukuyomi (post: 1223949)"]Hmmmm... o.o I believe they were not always clothed to begin with o.o That's just me though. Perhaps I misunderstood a line or two ^^]

I used the term clothes to refer to their fig leaf aprons. Hope that helps.

Oh, and just for the record, I would make exceptions in the case of sex and bathing and other necessities. I wouldn't say it's wrong in itself to be naked during sex or bathing. It's more about being naked in public. I'm not sure about Adam and Eve feeling ashamed when there were no other people around. Perhaps it had something to do with the possible consequences of what being naked can do.

Wow, it's getting down to the nitty-gritty here. But that's a good thing. I need to be honest in what I see in the scriptures.

[Tsukuyomi]

But wasn't that after they at the fruit o.o? When they decided to cover themselves with the leaves to apron themselves? I'm not trying to start anything by any means ^__^ I'm just a bit confused is all ^^; If need this to go to PM, then that's alright to

[KeybladeWarrior]

If the nudity has a purpose then that really is not much of a problem unless they want to add in some fanservice too.

[Radical Dreamer]

If need this to go to PM, then that's alright too.

This is probably not a bad idea; some of the heavier theological issues that could cause debate should probably be taken to PM, so be sure to use discretion before you post, everyone.

[Prince Asbel]

But wasn't that after they at the fruit o.o? When they decided to cover themselves with the leaves to apron themselves? I'm not trying to start anything by any means ^__^ I'm just a bit confused is all ^^]

I think that's a good idea. I'll get a PM ready here...

I will say that this is a logical fallacy right here. You cannot conclude with enough evidence that God disapproved of something simply because he offered something that was different from what was originally there.

That's just mortar to strengthen the issue of shame gained from the knowledge of sin.

The way I see it is that God gave them new clothes because the old ones were not sufficient to keep them warm, not because he disapproved of their old ones. (We all know that fur and animal hide would work better as clothing compared to leaves)

...Yes, I think that could be A reason, but I wouldn't say that's another reason, not the ONLY reason.

Notice how he did not command them to change outfits.

Well, since HE put them on Adam and Eve, he didn't NEED to command them to change outfits. ]Also note that Adam and Eve made lots of babies (At least two) in their day (i.e. they probably had lots and lots and lots of sex), so I don't really understand what you mean by saying that nudity is unbiblical.

I'd make an exception for that. Nudity between husband and wife is certainly acceptable. Nudity where you run the great risk of making other people sinning is where I'd say it's unbiblical. As far as the case for Adam and Eve, I don't think I know how to explain their shame in light of the fact that there was nobody on earth but them. Look up what I said in post #123.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Would you advise then that any action that could potentially in some way cause another to sin not be done?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I'd make an exception for that. Nudity between husband and wife is certainly acceptable. Nudity where you run the great risk of making other people sinning is where I'd say it's unbiblical. As far as the case for Adam and Eve, I don't think I know how to explain their shame in light of the fact that there was nobody on earth but them. Look up what I said in post #123.

Since that is the case, I am afraid your argument does not hold any water.

If anything, their shame was because of the fact that they disobeyed what God has commanded them not to do. By realizing their nudity, they in essence realized that they momentarily disconnected themselves from God (i.e. by sinning).

[quote] 10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked]

Also note that when Adam saw Eve for the first time, he found her to be stunningly beautiful AND that she was also naked.

[Fish and Chips]

Also note that when Adam saw Eve for the first time, he found her to be stunningly beautiful AND that she was also naked.

"Woah, man!"

[minakichan]

You mean his penis?

Hardy har har. I mean that it's not meant to be like looking at genitals in a textbook or to be biologically accurate, it's meant to show him off. That's why it's not circumcised despite the subject, because apparently au naturel is mega ultra manly or something.

I would make another comment, but it wouldn't be appropriate.

Hmm, there's a nudist dorm across campus. The folks there are kind of crazy. =/ But that's kind of different than just sculpting a nude figure... Nudism is all anti-establishment and rebellious, the intent is different. But I don't consider either to be inherently sexual.

[Prince Asbel]

Would you advise then that any action that could potentially in some way cause another to sin not be done?

Hmmm... It depends on whether or not you're strengthening someone to go against what their conscience demands of them. There are so many different situations to consider... Here's an idea. Someone may have a conscience that keeps them from listening to rock music. A rock star could still put on a public performance for a rock concert. In such a case. it's the duty of that someone to stay away rather than the rock star to put off performing.

Really, there are so so so maaaany different kinds of situations. It would take a lot of thought to consider so many. I suppose there is no universal code to apply for all cases.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

I think that to an extent if a person is not actually trying whether implicitly or unconsciously to make someone stumble, you need to ease up on them and take responsibility for your own actions. We start censoring everything we take away a lot of the daily reality of choice. We take a way choice, and well...

Again, use your own judgement approaching material or media, but try not to force that ruling on everyone else. To an extent.

[ShiroiHikari]

I think that to an extent if a person is not actually trying whether implicitly or unconsciously to make someone stumble, you need to ease up on them and take responsibility for your own actions. We start censoring everything we take away a lot of the daily reality of choice. We take a way choice, and well...

Again, use your own judgement approaching material or media, but try not to force that ruling on everyone else. To an extent.

QFT.

[Radical Dreamer]

Hmmm... It depends on whether or not you're strengthening someone to go against what their conscience demands of them. There are so many different situations to consider... Here's an idea. Someone may have a conscience that keeps them from listening to rock music. A rock star could still put on a public performance for a rock concert. In such a case. it's the duty of that someone to stay away rather than the rock star to put off performing.

Really, there are so so so maaaany different kinds of situations. It would take a lot of thought to consider so many. I suppose there is no universal code to apply for all cases.

Saying this, do you then agree that it is the duty of the viewer, not the artist, to make correct judgments on what he should or should not view? Are you also saying that, in contradiction to your earlier statements, the rock star is not doing wrong by putting on a public performance?

[ShiroiHikari]

Saying this, do you then agree that it is the duty of the viewer, not the artist, to make correct judgments on what he should or should not view? Are you also saying that, in contradiction to your earlier statements, the rock star is not doing wrong by putting on a public performance?

I was wondering the same thing.

[KeybladeWarrior]

I'd make an exception for that. Nudity between husband and wife is certainly acceptable. Nudity where you run the great risk of making other people sinning is where I'd say it's unbiblical.

Well, what if I went to a village of a tribe that ran around naked? Would their nudity be unbiblical even when they knew nothing of God and Scripture?

[Tsukuyomi]

Saying this, do you then agree that it is the duty of the viewer, not the artist, to make correct judgments on what he should or should not view? Are you also saying that, in contradiction to your earlier statements, the rock star is not doing wrong by putting on a public performance?

I was wondering the same thing o.o Yes, there is a lot of situations, but most if not all comes down to the viewer itself

[minakichan]

Well, what if I went to a village of a tribe that ran around naked? Would their nudity be unbiblical even when they knew nothing of God and Scripture?

I agree with you, but I don't know about this counterargument. There are a lot of sins in the Bible that are perfectly permissible in other cultures, but they're still wrong.

Instead, I think their nudity is OK because of cultural context, not that nudity itself in unbiblical in cultures that are familiar with the Bible. Just as women today don't need to wear head coverings to be modest, folks in those places might not have to cover up if it's not considered risque and extreme to go around naked.

[Kkun]

If I may...how old are you, Prince Asbel? I'm just curious.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Nudity's context for sin is lust. In a culture that has none of our taboos about nudity, lust is as much a issue for them as it can be for us clothed. And certainly we all know that being fully clothed has never stopped one or the other of us to look at a member of the opposite sex and maybe, you know, whistle.



... You do know how to whistle right? Just put your lips together and...

[Tsukuyomi]

Saying this, do you then agree that it is the duty of the viewer, not the artist, to make correct judgments on what he should or should not view? Are you also saying that, in contradiction to your earlier statements, the rock star is not doing wrong by putting on a public performance?

Nudity's context for sin is lust. In a culture that has none of our taboos about nudity, lust is as much a issue for them as it can be for us clothed. And certainly we all know that being fully clothed has never stopped one or the other of us to look at a member of the opposite sex and maybe, you know, whistle.



... You do know how to whistle right? Just put your lips together and...

And blow \o.o/

Like I said before (I think, or did I decide not to o.o?), a person can still lust after a fully clothed person with nothing revealing o.o What then? What can be done about it? Do we dispose of the person who just happen to walk by? Just because someone had lustful thoughts about them?

[Etoh*the*Greato]

Yes. Yes we do dispose of the person. Might I suggest this delicious Soylent Green?

[mechana2015]

Like I said before (I think, or did I decide not to o.o?), a person can still lust after a fully clothed person with nothing revealing o.o What then? What can be done about it? Do we dispose of the person who just happen to walk by? Just because someone had lustful thoughts about them?

I've been attracted to people based on the back of their neck.
Yup, clothing has nothing to do with it.

[minakichan]

Collarbones for me~ And hands.

On the contrary, when looking at guys, those places-exposed-by-full-nudity don't do it for me at all; I find them visually displeasing. Nothing in that region has the lovely delicate firmness, the soft yet supple strength of collarbones and hands for me.

So maybe I need to only look at men gloved and in button-up shirts. o_O

Like I said before (I think, or did I decide not to o.o?), a person can still lust after a fully clothed person with nothing revealing o.o What then? What can be done about it? Do we dispose of the person who just happen to walk by? Just because someone had lustful thoughts about them?

Nonono, you're supposed to gouge out your own eyes. Don't affect OTHER people.

[Etoh*the*Greato]

My fiancee digs shoulders.

[Maledicte]

Nonono, you're supposed to gouge out your own eyes. Don't affect OTHER people.

Matthew 5:29

"If thine right eye offend thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

And for the record, I find wrists, necks, shoulders and noses attractive.

[Tsukuyomi]

I know this sounds uber corny and off topic, but I really am attracted to the eyes ^__^

[Fish and Chips]

I love lamp.

[Tarnish]