The reason why hell has me so confused.

[Slater]

Of course, there's a little bit more to it when it comes to our spiritual lives than just "free will." Multiple times in the NT, those who are saved are called God's "elect*," which brings up another interesting point. Nobody who hears about Jesus will follow him by their own will because the message of Christ (and of hell) is too offensive; we are blinded by our sin nature to all this**. However, God (who has the power to change the heart) must soften our hearts so that we are able to accept His Salvation. In the end, it's not simply ourselves who chose to accept salvation and earn it thus, but it is God who chooses to show us the Light and bring us to understanding***.

This makes the message of the Bible extra sweet because we know that, when all is said and done, God will not have forgotten a single of his "elect," His children for which His love knows no bounds.

[size=-2]*"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

** "The election hath obtained it [Salvation], and the rest were blinded."

*** "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth"[/size]

[Puritan]

Just to give Slater's scripture references a place, the verses quoted are:

*Mark 13:19-20

** Romans 11:7

*** Romans 9:11

While I, too, fall into the camp people lable "Calvinist" (although Calvin was not the first person with this idea or even the most vocal supporter of predestination), I would beg people not to turn this into a predestination vs. free will debate as that, in my experience, can only turn nasty.

[frwl]

[Sorry mods, for using this account again]

Oh, and just to note, I don't consider myself a Calvinist... I've listened to Calvinists and Arminians debate about it out at my school, and both bring up very good points. IMO, it seems like Arminians and Calvinists agree on many points that they think they disagree on, and I think that there's probbably truth in the sort of "middle ground" between the two. I just fall more towards the Calvinist side.

I also agree that I hope this doesn't turn into a debate. I think that most of the problems come with how people think big words like "predestination" are defined and how our language doesn't have sufficient words to express such deep un-earthly matters. I know that such things can become nasty; it's why my dad says I'm not allowed to marry the one I love (he's a hardcore Arminian).

BTW, with these ideas, the question of what point there is in missions might come up, let me just say that Calvin himself had a few words to say about why we must still witness to people... In the end it boils down to the idea that humas don't know who the "elect" are and neither is it our duty to seek those things out (it would sort of be like looking for the Lamb's Book of Life). I will encourage everyone who reads this thread to, no matter what is said, continue to be a good witness for our Lord and seek to guide as many as possible to His light. No matter what your beliefs of predestination and such are, I hope that we can all agree that God wants to use us for spreading His Good News.

[Zarn Ishtare]

If you two would contact me Via PM, I would love to have a discussion. Could you perhaps get Yahoo Instant Messenger for the occasion? I have my opinions regarding the whole idea of Pre-Destination, and I would love to share and compare.


As a seperate note, this subject will touch upon thoughts like Free Will versus Calvinism, so it's hard not to notice dissenting theological beliefs. There is really no way to stop such a thing from happening, so it is based to simply post your belief in the matter and leave it at that.

So far, all very intelligent discussion and posts. It's good stuff your using guys, thanks for making me go study again so I could reply to this.

Zarn.

(That is, Slater and Puritan)

[USSRGirl]

I'm not sure if this is in the right place to put this or not sorry if it isn't.

I have heard that god has a book and in that book he writes down when you die and if you go to heaven or hell. My question is: If god loves all of these people so much(And I know he does) then why does he create the people that he knows are going to hell? It is kind of like having a baby only to torture it. If he knows these people are going to hell in the first place then why does he create them only to punish them?

I know this sounds weird but this question has been confusing me here lately.

Firefly, the concept of hell confuses a lot of people. One thing to clarify- God is ONLY mentioned as having a Book of LIFE. No where in the Bible does it say that He has a "blacklist" of any kind. It does say that there are two (or was it three? ...I need to brush up on my NT again) books in Revelation. My pastor explained this very well and I think he's dead on accurate at this point. One book is the Book of Life. The minute a person accepts Christ their name is "written" down in that book. The other book is a book of deeds (look it up in Revelations...towards the begining I think) in which people who refused Crist are judged by the world's standard of fairness on their works. Since no human deed or effort will ever be able to "please" God save Jesus' death on the cross, the people in that book don't make it in.

I hold the belief that God does NOT "throw people in hell." People condemn themselves to hell. From the begining everyone is given a choice. They can either accept Christ or reject him - but Christ can't "make" people become Christians as we are born with free will. It's like everyone has this amazing present sitting on their doorstep, but only a few actually open it. I HIGHLY reccomend that you read C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce. It deals with the subject very well, and I think you'd like it.

Your Comrade in Christ
-Temulin

[IZ&Trigun4life]

Think of it simply like this, I'll give you my example. My father is an Athiest, My mother is a devout Christian, The only way God knew that I would be Morgan, and have my personality to fulfill his plan, is to have them and only them create my earthly flesh. Basically, God creates EVERYONE for a purpose, and knowing that creation will never know him and love him, hurts, but he needs that person to create people who DO know and love him. God has a plan for everyones life whether they know it, believe it, or care about it.

[Warrior 4 Jesus]

Wow, that's an interesting way of looking at it! Thanks for posting this.

[RedMage]

Not an original one or one I would agree with (no offense to Treefingers), but we're not supposed to debate theology and this is a major gravedig anyway, so I'll say no more. :-)

[EireWolf]

So far this hasn't been a debate, really; it's been a very civil discussion. Thank you, dear members, for making it so!

About gravedigging: Yes, we do discourage the resurrection of old threads if someone has nothing new to add. If the "gravedigging" post is relevant, adds positively to the discussion, and was not made with negative intentions, we don't have a huge problem with it. (On the other hand, if someone gravedigs only to post something like, "I agree," "I disagree," or "this thred is teh ROXXORZZZZ!!!" -- we tend to frown on that.)

By the way... Welcome to CAA, TreeFingers! Feel free to post an intro in the Who's Who forum so our members can welcome you properly.

[Cap'n Nick]

Something interesting to consider in these matters is the question of agency. For example, in the Book of Job, who destroyed Job's possessions?

A. Foreign raiders
B. The devil
C. God

According to the story, the answer is D. All of the above. The raiders were responsible for their actions, but they were being used by Satan, who had in turn been granted permission by God. Any one of them could rightly be said to have destroyed Job's goods. God doesn't get off the hook here - sins of omission are just as grievous as sins of commission. You could say that God foreknew the actions of Satan and the raiders, but that's not the way the text speaks of it.

I think these discussions are largely an attempt to vindicate God. But, does God really need our help? Our attempts to justify his actions invariably make him out to be trite, powerless or evil. If he merely foreknows he has no power in the world. If he predestines he makes us into puppets and commits damnation. If he foreknows and can act in the world he is losing at his own game, or even desires our loss. I shall trust in his own assertions of goodness and justice rather than try to see it through these poorly contrived labels.

It is also important to note biblically, free will and predestination are not exclusive concepts. Though they do contradict each other logically the Bible speaks clearly of both. More importantly, no one seems immune to responsibility, no matter what his circumstances. Thus I think it is best to act as though we are free while remembering that we do nothing without the grace of God.

[RedMage]

Good post, Cap'n Nick.

[Doubleshadow]

Very insightful, Cap'n Nick.

[Ratrace]

I'm going to use some old posts, if anybody minds I apologize.

We cannot have an omniscient God (who is the very definition of 'good' and of all other positive ideals) that subjects His own creation to such terrors and then call that justice. True justice would be for those people, perhaps for us all, to have never existed in the first place.

Personally, I would rather risk going to Hell and have the chance to be with God than never have existed.

The thing about it is...if God already knows wether we will or will not accept Him, then why does he create those whom he knows beforehand will not? That's cruelty. And God is not cruel.

Because if he only made people who accepted him that would not be free will.

Doesn't scripture also reference Hell as Total Darkness? How can fire and darkness concide toegether? As fire brings forth light. As jade panther said, its a symbol of anguish and pain and regret.

Theres a chemical called benzene thats transparent even when burning. In Revelations the universe passes away. All light then comes from Gods presence, there isn't a sun or moon any more. Since to be in hell is to be away from God even the fire wouldn't give out any.

I think these discussions are largely an attempt to vindicate God. But, does God really need our help? Our attempts to justify his actions invariably make him out to be trite, powerless or evil. If he merely foreknows he has no power in the world. If he predestines he makes us into puppets and commits damnation. If he foreknows and can act in the world he is losing at his own game, or even desires our loss. I shall trust in his own assertions of goodness and justice rather than try to see it through these poorly contrived labels.

Actually God tells us to think about his ways all through the bible. God gave everyone the option of being good and being treated "fairly", if you like. "I set before you life and death, choose life" along with several whole chapters dotted around both testaments about sinners being forgiven if they turn from theirs ways. Logically for God to have people who choose to love him there must be people who choose not to. I still agree with you that believing its right because He said so Himself is the best reason though.


Heaven is the place where you go if you accept God. To get in you have to have become be a certain kind of person(Matthew 7:21-23 , 25:30+, Romans 14:17). When you're there you are a certain kind of person. If you reject God he lets you refuse to become like that. However, if he let people in Heaven as they are it would just become another version of Earth, it wouldn't be Heaven.

[Nate]

In Revelations the universe passes away.

Revelation. Not Revelations.

[Puritan]

Oh my, I remember this from oh-so-long ago. I do understand your point, Treefingers, and I agree that everyone who goes to hell goes there because they have, of their own volition, rejected God. However, the question for those of us who disagree often isn't based on a logical problem with God's Omniscience and Free Will. The predestination viewpoint doesn't claim people are automatons, rather (as it is usually formulated) it claims that people's wills are broken to the point that they cannot choose God for themselves anymore because of Sin. The verses Slater posted above and others form the Biblical basis for the idea (which I would be happy to discuss via PM, but will not go into further here).

[rocklobster]

Good thoughts, USSRGirl!

[Majic]

Hell Is What You Make It

Obviously, opinions vary on this topic, and of course I have mine.

Hell can be thought of as a place, but I think it's really more a state of mind (or "state of being" if you prefer).

It is possible to be happy or miserable no matter where you are.

Consider the hypothetical case of a Christian in Hell. Could that Christian be happy?

Yes, I think so, believe it or not. A true Christian would accept the situation and try to make the best of it.

And do what? Try to help others out and make Hell a better place, of course.

There's no shortage of talk about going to Hell and what goes on in Hell, but ultimately I think that's missing the point.

What truly matters is what goes on in our hearts, because that is what decides our fates.

The Kingdom of God is within you.

[Nate]

Without getting into theological debate (which is forbidden) I will just say that I completely disagree with everything in your post.

[Majic]

Well that keeps things simple, at least.