CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Here's some helpful links on telling whether or not your character is a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu for male characters)

The original Mary Sue Litmus Test: http://www.ponylandpress.com/ms-test.html

Another litmus test: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm

The first test grades more harshly than the second one, but the second one is more in-depth.

Wikipedia wrote:Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot on such a scale that suspension of disbelief fails due to the character's traits, skills and abilities being tenuously or inadequately justified. Such a character is particularly characterized by overly idealized and clichéd mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly—kind of an "author's pet" effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Hope these links help you in your writing!

Ha, these are fun, but I think the whole "u cant has azn naymez" thing is a bit ridiculous. So you can't have Asian names for no reason, but you can have any other kind of name for no reason? Double standard lol.

Nah, I know why they say that. It's all the bad fanfiction writers whose self-inserts are American but have Japanese names along with perfect hair and red eyes.

EDIT: XD, I clicked every single box for the first one and the score was 513.

I'm testing all of my characters and they're doing well so far, according to the first test (haven't touched the second one yet, XD).

Don't forget the swords longer than their bodies. Thank you Sephiroth. -.-

XD Haha - these are fun. Thing is that every question is very, very obviously a point in the Mary Sue direction leaving no room for "uh... sorta...?" or in context answers. The quiz itself is almost too type-casted to really give an accurate reading.

My first character scored good/decent... my second WIP character failed abyssmally. XD

My main character scored borderline on the first test and practically zero on the second. XD

These tests make me feel good about my characters. I'm definitely bookmarking these.

I've had characters who scored +70 on the first quiz and around 25 on the second quiz, which explains why I like the second quiz better There's a bit more leeway in that one.

The worst part of both quizzes for me is "are they/do they wear something you find attractive" when I find lots of people attractive and "would you like to be their friend" because some of my characters are quite friendly.

[color="Red"](These annoy me somewhat because they don't take into account context - well, yeah, my character may be fluent in a ton of languages, but it's because she works in international relations. At least the first quiz gives us a disclaimer about context, but I can't remember one on the second.)[/color]

The first quiz seems more than a bit absurd to me... Many of those questions are just strange, and I don't understand why a lot of those things would be a problem.

I also never understood the whole hatred for basing a fanfic character after yourself. People call it self serving, and it might often be such ("And Luke flicked his finger at Goku's face, throwing him into the sun and killing him, becoming the strongest fighter in the UNIVERSE"), but the vast majority of commercial fiction have characters, including main characters, based on the Authors. Harry Potter and Hermione Granger combined were based directly on J.K. Rowling. Diggory in Magician's Nephew and Ransom in the space trilogy and the main character in the Great Divorce are all directly based on C.S. Lewis.

What makes it different that it's fanfiction? I know there's more to Mary Sues than self-inserts, but many many people hate ALL self-inserts. I hear people say that the only valid fanfiction is that which has NO original characters... That's not only absurd, but technically the only non-gray area legally when it comes to fanfiction is that which has nothing BUT original characters, and simply uses the rules and locations in the stories they borrow from(such as, not to plug my own stuff, my Silent Hill fanfiction). I think provided you follow the author's wishes (J.K. Rowling, for instance, is happy with nearly all Harry Potter fanfiction except "adult" fanfiction) it should be fine, but the point remains that if you want to avoid all possible trouble, the only fanfiction you should write is that which takes place in the world, but not with the characters, of the story you are writing about.

I'm not writing this to make some sort of statement against fanfiction or anything, as I don't mind the "gray" fanfics, but merely to point out something I find worthy of contradicting this view on self-inserts

I did the second test, and got a 22 on my main character... I'm sure some of my secondary characters, especially one of my minor villains, would rank higher... I noticed naming a character after yourself or any variation instantly raises the number by 10 (no, the Main character isn't named after me, but I also started the test for one of my fanfic characters who I named Robert... Not exactly my name, but since I go by Bob online, it was worth mentioning.)

I'm nearly certain Harry Potter, Hermione, and Ransom would all rank in the "Kill it" range, and I'd be hard pressed to put the opinions of fanfic writers higher than those of published novelists, particularly C.S. Lewis. (oh, and I think Gandalf was supposed to be based on Tolkien, too, so he may have ranked pretty high on that list as well, particularly since he was a magic user and those are rare in LotR, if not so much in the extended Middle Earth stories)

EDIT: I went through and guessed about Harry Potter... I noticed "emerald green eyes" and "The chosen one" and stuff like that... Methinks this person HATED Harry Potter, because a few of the questions refer specifically to him... I'm not done yet, and Harry's already scored 45...

These tests have a range of fallibility, which is healthy of them. I personally use them more for backtracking than scrapping a character. One of my preferred characters stays within the danger zone, but reasonably so. Morpheus from Sandman ranks at a whopping 70 points, and if you have a problem with that you can stick a feather in your hat and eat it.

Not sure why "Smoking" is considered a Sue-ish trait though.

Most people hate self-inserts in fanfiction because eight times out of ten the self-insert is more like "(insert author's username) was so cool and powerful that he beat up Sasuke and Goku and Chuck Norris at the same time. All the girls loved him and he always got good grades but he was very emo and goffik to."

Also, these tests don't permanently define whether or not your character is a Sue, XD. I believe both of them mention that a high score doesn't necessarily mean it's bad and vice versa.

One thing I discovered while feeding these tests characters from an urban fantasy novel I have been working for a while (urban fantasy = swordsnsorcery mixed with modern or sci-fi times. Mine is near-future sci-fi) is that fantasy has a tendency to push scores up. Even though they apparently allow for 'supernatural powers are part of the milieu', apparently being tougher than others makes your character a Mary Sue. Unfortunately, being one of the more powerful and/or one of the prettier faces in the milieu, is kind of standard issue in Fantasy. Look through all the top titles and you will find very few major characters that don't have one or the other qualities about them, if not both. I recommend Donald Maas's fine book 'Writing the Breakout Novel' for some explanations as to why this is necessary (and not just in Fantasy. Also necessary in Romance, Action, and a few other genres.)

The Mary Sue problem comes in when one overloads a character or a few characters with all the goodies. But these tests seem to score a little too harshly. Most of my major and supporting protagonists (its a many-character muliti-volume story) scored as 'borderline Mary Sue', but I'm certain that in my milieu Mr. Maas (a highly regarded literary agent, incidentally) would disapprove of the characters who scored 'non Mary Sue.'

The test itself isn't wrong, (although I question a couple of the questions. Asian names? Huh? What if they're Asian, for Finagle's sake?) but the scale seems a hair off, or perhaps needs to adjust for genre better. Perhaps it is better at it when in its original stomping grounds, fan-fiction. I can see how most of these questions very much apply to add-in characters in fanfics.

To me, alot of the negativeness against the Mary Sue characters seem to be more against the overuse of cliche traits & story plots. I think that's what the tests are trying to help novice writers avoid.

My Sailor Dove character unfortunately is borderline/Mary Sueish. But, I do have a lot of surprising twists on her & the fanfic, (I've yet to write), that the test really didn't address. She has both childlike & childish traits.

Odd things, like she's pretty weak & her "powers" aren't really her own. Actually, bit by bit she loses them & grows weaker thoughout the story. Kinda a cross between these two scriptures.

"Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit. saith the Lord."

"The exalted shall be made humble and the humble shall be exalted."

Yeah, yeah. I'm defending my character. She's kinda like my ideal of a "not so perfect" Christian Lady who happens to be a Sailor Scout. The fact that I have her name as my CAA alias, probably condemns me even more. Ah vell, I surrender.

The second one is much more forgiving XD - one of my characters was Mary Sued by the first and not by the second. but in both tests the questions are vague-ish. I must agree with Rii on the context thing. There are also times when cliches are intentionally manipulated/parodied to make a point.

Smoking seems to be a predominant cliche amongst "edgy/lowlifey/rough" characters, usually in the suspense genre (or so I've noticed at least). But really... what do these quizzes have against drawing cute characters? (don't answer that, Fish). >.O

I think these tests should be renamed "Cliche Character Detectors" rather than Mary Sue ones. XD Because that's what it seems to be grading on, rather than self-insertion. Still, it's fun to run my characters through it. Gets the ol' gears turning.

I, for one, absolutely love Mary-Sues with every last bit of my heart. They're fun to read in the same way an Ed Wood film is fun to watch. No one remembers a good fanfic. Everyone remembers a really, really bad one.

That said, I ran my two protagonists through the litmus test sometime last year and they came out at something like -20.

My villain got +20.

I still have no idea what to think about this.

Wow, that's interesting, Tarnish XD

I read somewhere before, that the thing that saves a character from being a Sue/Stu is consequences. If a character somehow manages to bypass any, and I mean any, negative situation and not feel remorse/wanting to help others who can't/etc, then there's something probably wrong.

Unless of course, the character has been genetically engineered to be lucky, like that girl from Ringworld.

I'm sorry, but I must sing this....

"Mary Sue, Mary Sue... I love you, Mary Sue."

Thank you, I feel better now.

Yeah, I didn't really appreciate some of those questions; they didn't really seem to be indicators of Mary-Sues to me. The one I like the least is the "Would you want to be friends with them?" one. I feel very close to all of my main characters, and many of my supporting characters as well, and yes, I would like to be friends with many of them. How does that make them Mary-Sues? That aspect of the character has nothing to do with their personality or character design. Not really.

Anyway, I put one of my OCs from a fanfic and one of my favorite main characters from an original story through both tests. The fanfic one got 15 on the first and 25 on the second. The original one got 25 on the first and 30+ on the second. Funny, I seem to be getting higher scores on the second one.

And just for fun, I put Harry Potter through the second litmus test. He got over 60 points

I did the second test with my character Mordecai in mind. Got a 6 XD

0-16 Points
Most likely Not-Sue. Characters at this level could probably take a little spicing up without hurting them any.

[quote="the_wolfs_howl (post: 1234658)"]Yeah, I didn't really appreciate some of those questions]

I have the same reaction. In the novel I mentioned previously, I have a character who is a cop. (That's a mark against him itself, it seems, even though it makes perfect sense for him to be a cop, after all, the novel is about trying to catch a particular criminal... but I digress.) I have described this guy before in a writer's club as 'The policeman I would like to have show up if I had to call 911'. So, I like the guy, right? Should I have a cop I wouldn't like be the main character? Some self-serving, quota-chasing donut connosieur? Wouldn't that guy be more of a cliche than my good guy?

SO... it's a half decent test, and the intentions are good, but caveat emptor, folks. Take the result with a grain of salt.

This reminds me of The Fantasy Writer's Exam I found somewhere and posted on dA.

I got a 54 (first one) and a 27 (second one) for Arden in a story I'm working on on here. I thought he would score higher : D.

Thanks for the link XD! I'm going to check my other characters in my other stories.

Man, it is so hard to create a totally original character. Possibly impossible.


Later: It is true. Some of these questions are vague. And others are things you would include in a fantasy story. Or maybe the creator of this quiz just wants a story about a dude sitting on his couch watching TV or something. That's totally original XD.


OH--and they forgot to add 'blacksmith' into the job category.

For my main character I got 32, making him a borderline Sue. In terms of character, history and looks he's not much of a Sue, but much of the plotting-aspect questions seems to have added to his 'sue-ness' in the quiz.

I have to say... these threads are terribly predictable. But for the moment, here we go again:

Those tests are decent lists of things that should be cautionary. I have a few objections, however - how is it a Mary Sue for a character to be given a name that matches its personality? Isn't that what you'd call good naming?

SirThinks2Much wrote:The worst part of both quizzes for me is "are they/do they wear something you find attractive" when I find lots of people attractive and "would you like to be their friend" because some of my characters are quite friendly.

I know what you mean. But keep in mind there's 20 points before even being borderline Mary Sue (for the first test, anyway) - so they're assuming a few of these will happen to fall out along these lines.

Bobtheduck wrote:(oh, and I think Gandalf was supposed to be based on Tolkien, too, so he may have ranked pretty high on that list as well, particularly since he was a magic user and those are rare in LotR, if not so much in the extended Middle Earth stories)

That has me curious. I've already looked at the first test, but I did him while reading the second. If we don't assume anything about Tolkien and say that magic is universe-acceptable (if not common) then he actually scores pretty low.

Bobtheduck wrote:I also never understood the whole hatred for basing a fanfic character after yourself. People call it self serving, and it might often be such ("And Luke flicked his finger at Goku's face, throwing him into the sun and killing him, becoming the strongest fighter in the UNIVERSE"), but the vast majority of commercial fiction have characters, including main characters, based on the Authors. Harry Potter and Hermione Granger combined were based directly on J.K. Rowling. Diggory in Magician's Nephew and Ransom in the space trilogy and the main character in the Great Divorce are all directly based on C.S. Lewis.

The question is what purpose the character serves. Diggory, for example, is a relatively normal little boy who gets into some trouble and things turn out alright in the end - that's not a self-aggrandizing exercise in wish-fulfillment. Now if Harry was basically Rowling (I don't know her and so I can't judge) that would be cause for me to disapprove. Actually, he does have tons of traits that I dislike and I think make him a mediocre protagonist.

Bobtheduck wrote:What makes it different that it's fanfiction?

I think this makes a fairly big difference, actually. Original fiction creates an entire world in which the author (even if an explicit self-insertion) is only a part. Fanfiction allows the author to enter someone else's world and play out their fantasies in a far more obvious fashion.

the_wolfs_howl wrote:The one I like the least is the "Would you want to be friends with them?" one. I feel very close to all of my main characters, and many of my supporting characters as well, and yes, I would like to be friends with many of them. How does that make them Mary-Sues? That aspect of the character has nothing to do with their personality or character design. Not really.

Yeah, that one would definitely be checked for most of my characters too. That's because my requirements for friendship are basically "interesting people" and those are the kinds of characters I try to write.

But I can see why it is worth a point. One form of Mary Sue is to create someone who is the perfect imaginary friend. I kind of assumed they meant the question in a "Oh, I wish she/he went to my school" way instead of "Sure, if they were real."