Coincidence? Plan?

[rocklobster]

OK, big question time! I've heard a theory numerous times that there is really no such thing as a coincidence, that even the most insignificant events might be all part of God's "great plan". (there's a variant called synchronicity, which really ups the weirdness) So I was wondering what you people think. Personally, I'm not sure, but I've often wondered if God planned certain events in my life and the lives of people I know and love so that they'd happen a certain way. I can't be the only one on here who's pondered this!

[ich1990]

Do we really need to rehash the Problem of Evil stuff again?

[Dante]

I flipped a coin three times and it landed heads up with no effect on anyone (I was just bored and flipping coins was something to do, I wasn't even watching them). Coincidence?

Coincidences are just a part of life. Thinking otherwise is not only silly but somewhat dangerous. Win a few times in a casino? If you realize its a coincidence, you just walk away with your winnings, if you think that its part of God's predestination that you should be a millionaire, you'll suddenly bet the farm. Besides which, if coincidences didn't occur, statistics as a school of thought wouldn't even be remotely valid.

I don't believe God is completely absent from the picture of our lives, but on the daily things, I don't think he's OCD about everything as some would paint him.

[Atria35]

I'm of the 'Don't Know' group. Sometimes I feel like something is Kismet, sometimes I definitely don't. But I definitely don't think everything is God's Will. I think he gives us a nudge once in a while, but if he planned everything, there's no such thing as Free Will- we're just playing out parts in a script.

[Nate]

God plays a very active role in the world, but He's no micromanager as far as I'm concerned. Things happen, and while God does have plans for us, I think it's silly to think he controls every single aspect of everything.

I'm with Pascal. If I flip a coin and it comes up heads three times in a row, I don't think God made it do that. It just happened. God put physical laws into effect in this universe so that He wouldn't HAVE to micromanage everything. He can just sit back and let the physical laws of the universe take care of the minor things, and He can do what He deems is necessary for Him to do.

This is, incidentally, why I think anyone who says the weather is God's wrath or mercy is completely wrong. There are physical laws to how weather works, and I'm sure God just lets the weather do its own thing. To try and read intent or purpose behind a force of nature is completely missing the point as far as I'm concerned.

[Kaligraphic]

The universe runs on physical laws. God does not personally pull the sun across the sky every day or guide every tumble of your breakfast cereal as you pour it into the bowl. Divine intervention is called that because it is an intervention in the normal workings of the universe, leading to an outcome other than what those laws would otherwise have produced.

If we think that everything is an immediate divine act, we will not only stray into dangerous territory ("I survived running across a major boulevard with traffic running at 50mph? I must be meant to do that again! *splat*"), but we also miss the permanent miracle of the fact that the universe actually does work. Sure, Jesus turned water into wine, but water turns into wine every day through means that would astound us if they weren't so common. (It involves the use of grape vines, sunlight, and time)

[Sheol777]

Yeah well seems like this is the old "free will vs. determinism" wrapped up in a different package. Which is it? Both.

So far the posts have said this already, I for one think God gives us a free will and certain events in our life (divine intervention) are guided.

Where is Mr. Smartypants?

[Hiryu]

I think there are pre-determined coincidences and accidental coincidences. Although pre-determined coincidences is a bit of an oxymoron

[Rusty Claymore]

Does God do stuff for fun? Whether than is there coincidences, are coincidenses one of the tools God created to work his plan? God seems to like vastly complicated and meticulous things that operate very simply, so maybe coincidences are just part of His style? n.n/)

[TGJesusfreak]

Ok. The way I see it. There is always coincidence. But God is all knowing. So God can turn you bad things into good if you let him. He can teach you a lot through the hard stuff in life.

All I know is that God doen't MAKE the hard stuff happen. He lets your life happen. and Frankly, if you choose to step out in front of a car, I do not think that God can control that XD.

In short, stuff happens, and when it does, God can turn it around and make it good one day. Though you may lose something, if you trust in God then you'll always gain something. That something may be as simple as feeling the love of your savior.

[goldenspines]

I suppose I'll throw my two pennies into the mix.

Though, I cannot prove this, I've always thought that God is in control of everything, but He doesn't always "make" stuff happen. He knows exactly what's going to happen though, but He doesn't always force it to happen (since we have free will and all, we can do what we want, generally; but it will always have consequences, both good and bad).
Though, I think God will intervene if we seek Him and ask, and when it's best for us.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. - Matthew 7:7-8

Though, short answer and in response to the poll: Don't know for sure and don't really care. XD

[Ella Edric]

I suppose I'll throw my two pennies into the mix.

Though, I cannot prove this, I've always thought that God is in control of everything, but He doesn't always "make" stuff happen. He knows exactly what's going to happen though, but He doesn't always force it to happen (since we have free will and all, we can do what we want, generally] “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. - Matthew 7:7-8 [/I]

Though, short answer and in response to the poll: Don't know for sure and don't really care. XD

^ This is a good answer. XD

[Syreth]

I've always thought that God is in control of everything, but He doesn't always "make" stuff happen.

This is probably the statement that's closest to my view. If God is all-powerful, then anything that he doesn't make happen, he allows to happen.

[A88mph]

God is "All-Knowing" and "All Powerful". I think that when we feel like something is a coincidence, he knew what was going to happen, so there really is no coincidence.

For example: as stated before, God created gravity that helps pour your cereal into the bowl, and he knows that you would have breakfast that morning.

Another example: He had each of us born at a specific time, in a specific place, to specific parents.

Let's face it, he's the man with the plan

[Mr. SmartyPants]

No matter which option you pick, you're limiting God.

In fact, I believe that the minute I think about God, I am limiting God.

Or something like that, I guess. I dunno.

Am I limiting God by saying that things I do limit God? Can we even attribute any trait or characteristic to God?

I dunno. x_x

[Nate]

No matter which option you pick, you're limiting God.

I disagree. It's not limiting God to say "God doesn't do everything." Because He could if He wanted, He just doesn't.

I COULD go downstairs and get a drink right now. I'm not going to, but that doesn't mean I can't. I can, I just choose not to. It's the same with God, He can do anything, but He doesn't.

But if you pick that there are no coincidences, then I DO think you're limiting free will and advocating determinism, which I have a problem with.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I get what you're saying, but my point goes beyond that.

By saying something like "God does" or "God does not", you're automatically limiting God to some sort of parameter deriving from language.

So when I say "God is omnipotent", you are limiting God to the human idea of "omnipotence".

So one question is like... if there is some sort of "transcendent omnipotence" which transcends even omnipotence. Can we even think it? I dunno, man. Interesting to think about.

[Rusty Claymore]

*suppresses itching desire to add two cents*
I think we are straying a bit...
My dictionary defines "coincedence" as: An accidental sequence of events that appear to have a causal relationship.
So we have a bunch of accidents, and there appears to be a cause behind all of them. It's our "mistakes, accidents, and happenchances" but it's tied by a lurking cause.
In other words: Both opposing veiws expressed above aren't really opposing and are actually right.
According to my dictionary, that is.

[Nate]

it's tied by a lurking cause.

Wrong. You seem to have missed a word in the definition you posted. I'll bold it for you.

"An accidental sequence of events that appear to have a causal relationship."

That's the key word. The thing about coincidences is that they only APPEAR to have a causal relationship. They actually don't, which is why they are coincidence. "Correlation does not imply causation" goes along with this. In other words, just because one event happens before another event, does not mean that the two events are related. A good, classic example is this:

1. A rooster crows.
2. The sun rises.

Now obviously, the rooster crowing did NOT cause the sun to rise. This is why correlation does not imply causation. In the same vein, if you need 20 dollars to pay for something and happen to find a 20 dollar bill on the street, the two events are not related. That is why it is coincidence. It seems related, but it isn't.

The human brain loves to look for patterns that don't actually exist. It's how we're wired. We like to read too much into things and try and see things that aren't actually there. And of course, nothing is there. It's just coincidence.

EDIT: I'll go ahead and post my thoughts on this.

By saying something like "God does" or "God does not", you're automatically limiting God to some sort of parameter deriving from language.

Not really. Either God does something, or He does not. There are two options for an event in the universe: either a) an event occurs or b) it does not. There is no other option, and that isn't dependent on language (though it IS dependent on perception, I will acknowledge that).

Unless what you're saying is that "God does x" is not always similar to say, me reaching out my finger and pushing the bottle of hot sauce on my desk with it. That God "does" something but it's not the same as "doing" something. If that's what you're saying, I can understand what you're getting at, though I agree that it's difficult to wrap our heads around.

So one question is like... if there is some sort of "transcendent omnipotence" which transcends even omnipotence. Can we even think it? I dunno, man. Interesting to think about.

While some might find this subject interesting (I personally don't, but I know some people would) the problem is that it isn't a very useful point to bring up in a discussion about this subject. It's the equivalent of going into a diatribe on how the letter "x" came to exist in the English language during an algebra class...it isn't helpful to understanding how to solve a quadratic equation, no matter how interesting it may be.

[ABlipinTime]

Interesting topic...

I don't think we necessarily have to define coincidence with respect to God. After all, we can simply say that a coincidence is an unexpected event from OUR point of view. In that respect, yes, there are coincidences.

If you wish to include the perspective of God in the definition...
well, you can see that there's already a nice debate going on for that.

[Nate]

After all, we can simply say that a coincidence is an unexpected event from OUR point of view. In that respect, yes, there are coincidences.

I disagree. As I said, why would God bother to set up physical laws in our universe if He was just going to do anything himself? Why would God make it happen that I flipped a coin so that it came up heads three times in a row? It's silly, and ridiculous to think God is going to say "I will make that coin come up heads three times in a row," especially when there are, y'know, REAL problems in the world.

I'm not bringing the question of evil into this, I'm just saying it's nonsensical for God to do something as worthless as having a coin come up heads three times in a row, but not doing something like say, sending rain to a place with severe drought.

Plus as I said, if God Himself does everything, free will is an illusion. We have none, because every choice we make, every thing we do, is God making us do something.

And if you go "No, we can freely choose to do things," then why can't things outside of our own minds/bodies happen on our own? Why is my decision to wear a red shirt not God doing it, but my coin landing as heads three times God doing it?

Again, people like to read too much into things, and see patterns that don't exist. People do this all the time with astrology, numerology, crystal healing, so on and so forth. There's a coincidence, and they think it's some sort of cosmic force at work, but it isn't. It's just coincidence.

So yes, I'd like to think that I have at least SOME control over my life, and that I am not just acting out parts in a play that God has written. Believing in coincidences allows me to have free will. Thinking everything that happens is part of a divine plan makes me a puppet.

[Rusty Claymore]

Everyone here is defining coincidence differently. It's getting kinda pointless to argue that someone is wrong and someone else is right. We might as well be arguing about the correct meaning of Moe and Otaku.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Stepping aside from the other point I brought up earlier. Nate, how do you know that laws in the universe exist? Or do you just experience them based off of perception? If that's the case, you can't necessarily know of their existence.

For a bit of a reference on this, look up Hume's critique of causality.

[Furen]

Everyone here is defining coincidence differently. It's getting kinda pointless to argue that someone is wrong and someone else is right. We might as well be arguing about the correct meaning of Moe and Otaku.

QFT that's what happens to me too many times and we find out we are argueing about the same thing but with different words... (darn this confusing english[we should sue it... OH WAIT wrong thread])

[TGJesusfreak]

I disagree. As I said, why would God bother to set up physical laws in our universe if He was just going to do anything himself? Why would God make it happen that I flipped a coin so that it came up heads three times in a row? It's silly, and ridiculous to think God is going to say "I will make that coin come up heads three times in a row," especially when there are, y'know, REAL problems in the world.

I actually agree totally! I mean, WHY would God make the self sustaining physical laws, if he was going to control EVERYTHING all at once? I think that God CAN control them whenever he sees fit. But I don;t think he's constantly controling everything to the very second. He CAN control everything... but he doesn't always.

For example, do you think God was the one who pushed Hurricane katrina onshore to kill a buncha people? Nope, that's life. He can make all things good one way or another if you trust in his plan. But like we've mentioned, God knows EVERYTHING, but he lets some things happen. He doesn't MAKE bad things happen. Stuff just happens.

[Nate]

Nate, how do you know that laws in the universe exist? Or do you just experience them based off of perception?

*SIGH* Look, if you're not going to contribute anything useful, just...don't bother getting in the discussion, okay? Or better yet, whenever I say "This exists" or "This happens" just mentally add "based on our perception" to it every time so I don't have to go through this with you EVERY TIME.

There is a constant speed for light BASED ON OUR PERCEPTION. Low pressure and high pressure weather systems exist BASED ON OUR PERCEPTION. Sure, maybe it's just coincidental that everyone in the universe is somehow experiencing the exact same dream or illusion and the speed of light is totally wrong even though everyone sees it the same, but so what? IT DOESN'T MATTER. If everyone sees it the same, then it's pointless to argue "BUT WHAT IF IT ISN'T LIKE THAT AND EVERYONE THAT EVER EXISTED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME WAS WRONG?"

This is a thread about theology, not about philosophy or the meaning of existence or "Dude what if like we're in the Matrix and this universe is just programmed into our MINDS!" Physical laws such as the speed of light, mass, volume, and so on either objectively exist or everyone is just having the same dream or drug-induced stupor but either way what does it matter? Our calculations with them usually work perfectly fine, so even if those laws don't "exist" they exist enough for us to use them.

Thus, I can look and say "God put physical laws, such as the law of conservation of mass/energy into this universe" because those laws hold true in all instances, regardless of if everyone is just perceiving it the same way or it's objectively true, and arguing about perception is neat for philosophy class, but it's pointless and annoying for chemistry or physics class.

Sorry if I'm coming off harsh but as I said, bringing off-topic subjects such as perception and objectivism into a thread that isn't about those things is frustrating because it derails the thread like this, and it doesn't contribute one iota to a meaningful discussion. See above about my statement on explaining the letter "x" in an algebra class.

[ich1990]

Well I retract my original comment. I had thought everyone had already made their positions clear in previous threads. This seems to decidedly not be the case. Therefore, I contribute my own stirring of the coals:

To go along with A88mph:

I propose the oldest argument in the book,

1. If God created the universe and is all powerful and
2. God knew the entirety of time and all it encapsulates within this universe when he created it, that
3. God must have meant for every single thing that happened to have happened, otherwise he would have made it differently so that it wouldn't have happened, therefore
4. While God is not manually flipping coins, he planned for them to be flipped and therefore flipped them automatically

Conclusion: There are no coincidences.

[Shao Feng-Li]

They're maybe coincidences on our parts- (or just seem like coincidences), but God is in control of every last and minute detail. I mean, according to plain scripture as in like Romans 9, I can't come to any other conclusion. How big does something have to be before it's God's doing? How small does it have to be before He doesn't have to bother with it?

Ephesians 1:11 (King James Version)

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Question answered as far as I'm concerned.

[Sapphire225]

Well, I guess it depends on one's definiton of coincidence.

Dictionary.com's definition for the word is this:

a striking occurrence of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance

However, I think it also depends on the magnitude of what you call a coincidence. God gave everyone a free will in which the decisions made has their own consequences, whether good or bad. Of course, he knows what is going to happen, as well as what could have happend, but it would take away from our free will had he intervened comletely in some events. I don't think God wanted human puppets that lacked the abilty to think for themselves. There would be no point for reason or common sense if that was the case. However, physical properties such as the law of inertia and the like are hard to exactly classify.

God created physics and chemical world, and has total control over how things occur. However, I have no idea whether he controls every aspect of the physics that happen in your life, such as the simple turning of a marker. I would agree with Nate, that God can control everything, but doesn't because it would take away from finding things out for ourselves. However, that is only a question that only Gods knows so I can't speak on his behalf.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Nate, I disagree. If were going to make statements regarding a characteristic of God, there are certain truths that we must presuppose.

Based off of what humans think and perceive, it would seem that there are universal laws. But what if the universe was far more chaotic or nonsensical than we thought? So how can we really know about things like coincidence? I dunno I'm not trying to negate the whole discussion or anything. But I think it's presumptuous to claim to know. But philosophy and theology absolutely depend on one another, hence why I try to raise an alternate viewpoint. To think that a position is true depends on our view of God. But are we really accurate in our understanding of God?

I think there is far less knowledge than we like to think. So how can we make assertions about God? We can make conjecture, but there is no definite answer. It's all relative.

And Shao. I don't think that's a clear statement at all. It makes more sense to assume that Paul referred that to things regarding life. Not on the subject of physics... Like a leaf falling or something.

I think it is arrogant to back up either position by trying to explain God's nature or characteristics