what if...

[supa dupa ninja]

got a burning sensastion, got a real good question.
if the dallai llama dies will he go to hell?
if a sadistic psychopath got killed yet before he dies he prayed and asked for mercy, will be accepted by the father?
hope you guys answer this questions 'o mine.

[TheMelodyMaker]

Please forgive my naivety, but may I ask who this "dallai llama" fellow is?

[EireWolf]

(Lamaism, according to Webster, is the Mahayana Buddhism of Tibet and Mongolia marked by tantric and shamanistic ritual and a dominant monastic hierarchy headed by the Dalai Lama.)

As for the Dalai Lama's soul, only God knows where he will go. It is not for us to judge. It's possible that he knows Jesus in his own way... I've never met the Dalai Lama; I don't know.

Same for the other guy... but I believe the mercy of God is vast enough to cover a psychopathic killer who truly repents. Rumor has it that Jeffrey Dahmer (a serial killer and cannibal) accepted Christ before he died... who am I to say he doesn't deserve salvation? Who am I to presume that I deserve salvation?

So... that's my $0.02, for what it's worth.

[Straylight]

The fact that Jesus will accept anyone who believes and repents is testament to the great power of His grace. I think that there will be a lot of surprises in Heaven.

[supa dupa ninja]

well the point of my question is, will God punish the heathens who spread peace and equality to his children yet give mercy to those who deserves to be punished and damned but repents and accept the lord.

hope I didn't made it more complicated...

[Ashley]

I think the Bible makes it very clear that there is only one way to heaven (Jesus Christ) and what manner of person you are is irrelevant. God does not use what you did in this life to see if you can get into heaven ("there is no one righteous, no not one"--not "well there's a couple of good guys but you're all mostly bad"); it's a simple "did you accept my Son?" However unjust that may seem to us, "his ways are higher than mine". Like Eirewolf said, who are we to determine who is worthy of salvation? In the Lord's eyes, aren't we all equally unworthy?

[Twilly Spree]

Unfortunately not ALL Christian denominations believe that only those that accept Jesus Christ will make it into Heaven. Just a reminder....

[Ashley]

I'm treading my own rules very carefully here, but I honestly can't see how you could possibly believe there is another way to heaven except through Christ alone, especially given some of the pretty clear verses in the scriptures, and still call yourself a Christian. I'm interested to see how you could justify them with another 'way to heaven'. If you don't mind, for my own enlightenment, can you pm some examples to me?

[Straylight]

Unfortunately not ALL Christian denominations believe that only those that accept Jesus Christ will make it into Heaven. Just a reminder....

CS. Lewis had these ideas as well. If you've read the Narnia series, you'll recall that there's one guy who is admitted into "heaven" even though he worships a different god.

I don't really understand the reasoning behind this logic either, save for the fact that God makes His own decisions.

John 4:16 Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

This is definately true -- I think the issue could be down to the fact that some people may have established a relationship with God dispite having not heard of Christianity. The problem with this is that to me, it looks like you need knowledge of what Jesus did in order to be saved.

I'd love to know how this works anyway.

[Bobtheduck]

"I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No man comes to the father except by me."

Tell me how that could POSSIBLY be interpreted ANY other way? The only way to get forgiveness from sins is under Jesus, and sin left over in your life, regardless of how big or small, will make you fall short, IE everyone needs Jesus. If you don't believe that, I'd say you weren't a Christian.

The question was brought up about people knowing Jesus in their own way, and that is completely different. I believe Jesus could reveal himself to people and not be called "Jesus" since even "Jesus" is just an attempted transliteration thing into Greek from the Hebrew "Yeshua" but if they don't believe in the person we know to be Jesus, and if they don't accept him as God, there's no way they can go to heaven. Period.

I think everyone, in this life, has one climax moment where they make a decission. I also believe in something called "an age of accountability" and I'm not sure how biblical that is, but if its' true, that could cover people who've never heard (but followed him without even knowing who he was, as I believe that's how Jesus or Paul put it, one of them...)

As for C.S. Lewis, despite being the most well known apologetic in modern history, he was still human. He still missed points and had some wrong ideas. He wasn't divine or inerrant. He was a follower of Christ, and an imperfect one till the day he died.

Number of serious arguments I've entered into in the last 3 days: too many... I need to take a break from CAA... But I'm ADDICTED! No, I'm going to do it. I'll be back later. Maybe a day, maybe a week, maybe a month, but in a while. I need to calm down and lessen my stress before I come back here. I'll definately be back when "To End All Wars" hits theaters again. Ja ne!

[Haibane Shadsie]

Slightly off topic... just thinking about the dude in Narnia that was mentioned... that was in "The Last Battle".

At the end, he was talking to Aslan about how he had faithfully served Tash all his life. This man was a noble warrior among his people (darn, forget the name of the nation), and Aslan told him that all the good he'd done in the name of Tash he'd count as good in his name, because nothing truly good could be done in his name, and nothing but evil could truly be done by Tash. (Aslan representing Jesus and Tash representing Satan). Now, this man that Aslan was talking to in the Narninan version of Heaven... came to realize at the end of his life that Tash was a false god and that Aslan was true. I think that was how it was meant, anyway... that this noble but pagan man realized the truth of who he needed to know in the end... he was just worried in talking to Aslan that his life before that was a waste and was, being new at knowing Aslan, was unsure of how to serve him.

In any case, I thought that passage in the book was really cool.

And... I think Red Ninja was talking about the Universalists, right?

I do think that people can "find Jesus" without knowing his name... the Bible says that there is no excuse for those who "do not know the law" (if I am correct), just because God's existance and love is evident in his creation. I think it's rare, though, for people to find the person of Jesus without knowledge of formal Christianity. Jesus is the only way, it's just that I think it is possible for people to discover the person without knowing exactly what to call him (Yeshua, Jesus). I believe He is merciful enough to reveal himself to anyone who sincerely searches. It is what people do with the decision (accept the only one who can save them once confronted with the truth) that matters in the end of the matter, and I think God gives individuals many, many chances throughout their lives to know the truth (those who live long enough, anyway).

[Gremio]

Only G-d knows who he will save and who he wont, the offer is open for anyone who accepts Jesus. But on the other hand I dont believe that everyone who doesnt believe in Jesus will be going to hell, the Jews for example made a covenant with G-d that is eternal *shrugs*
Jesus said that only the sick need to be healed and not those well, that is what he said when he was questioned about eating with the sinners and theives. He came to heal those sick, and save those lost.

I think you can believe in Jesus without calling him that, since Jesus was not his name. His name was Yeshua, essentially the same name as Joshua's real name, Yehoshua. Anyway our G-d is a loving and mercifull G-d, but at the same time just and fair, those who do find him and repent will be forgiven no matter how deep the sin, so could be surprising just who exactly will be in heaven

[Technomancer]

Other faiths may be an imperfect apprehension of the divine, but those who follow them are still honestly seeking God.

[Twilly Spree]

I was waiting for you Techno. Nicely said

[cbwing0]

First of all, I think it is important to realize that God doesn't have to forgive anybody. It is totally a matter of His grace and mercy.

For those that have heard the gospel, I think it is pretty difficult to get around the fact that they will go to hell. This would cover most people in the Western world, and a smaller number in other places. They have heard of and rejected Christ, so unless they repent, they are damned.

As for those that have never heard the gospel, there are various theories within Christianity. Most of them draw upon Romans 1:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse" (Romans 1:18-20).

Thus, for those that have never heard the gospel, their salvation will depend upon their response to the information that is available to them through nature.

Other faiths may be an imperfect apprehension of the divine, but those who follow them are still honestly seeking God.

Perhaps, but if they have heard the gospel and continue in their non-Christian faith, they will not be saved. Then again, I wouldn't consider them to be "honestly seeking God," if they heard the gospel and rejected it. There is also the problem of idolatry: will they be saved even though the follow false Gods? I think not. This sort of doctrine also discourages us from spreading the gospel]Unfortunately not ALL Christian denominations believe that only those that accept Jesus Christ will make it into Heaven. Just a reminder....[/quote]
Fortunately all orthodox Christian denominations do in fact believe that only those who accept Jesus Christ make it to heaven (in addition those that would be counted under Romans 1:18-20). There are certain pseudo-Christian sects that believe this teaching (Unitarian Universalists, for instance), but it is at odds with scripture.

[Technomancer]

There is a difference between hearing the gospel and knowing it.

[cbwing0]

There is a difference between hearing the gospel and knowing it.

Yes, and that is the different between the lost and the saved. Those that hear and believe know, while those that hear and reject do not. The gospel so difficult or obscure that this distinction will make a difference in terms of salvation. However, we will be called to give an account of our actions if we do a poor job of sharing the gospel.

Still it is a superfluous distinction, as there is always more that we could know. The important thing how we respond to what we have been given.

[Twilly Spree]

Fortunately all orthodox Christian denominations do in fact believe that only those who accept Jesus Christ make it to heaven (in addition those that would be counted under Romans 1:18-20). There are certain pseudo-Christian sects that believe this teaching (Unitarian Universalists, for instance), but it is at odds with scripture.

No they do not, there are certain beliefs in the Catholic church about the inherent Good in people and those that believe in divine providence.

[Michael]

There's no way to get to Heaven unless God has decided that you're one of the elect.

[EireWolf]

(WARNING: If you lack the ability to step outside your own box into someone else's shoes, do not read this post.)

Imagine, if you will, that you were born in a 3d-world country. Your parents are faithful adherents to the local (non-Christian) religion. They pray to the gods daily, they help others, etc. You were brought up in this environment, and taught to believe in and faithfully serve the local gods and do good in their name.

Then one day, a Christian missionary comes to your village for the first time. This missionary, not knowing much of anything about your people, tells you and your parents that you are all terrible sinners, and that you will all go to hell unless you believe in this new god called "Christ." He also tells you that you must change your way of life in various ways... You must now wear clothing, because your nakedness is offensive to his god. You must learn how to read, because your ignorance is offensive to his god. You must adopt the western ways in general, because these are the ways of his god.

You are deeply offended by this missionary. Who is he to come to your village and tell you that you must abandon the gods you have faithfully served, and worship this new god that you have never heard of? And this must be a harsh god indeed, who makes you change everything about the way you live. You see nothing wrong with your current way of life; why should it change for a foreign god?

The villagers ask the missionary to leave, and they continue living in faithful service to their gods.

(End Scenario)

1. Sure, the villagers are worshipping false gods. But they don't know that! They were raised to believe that these gods are the truth... just like YOU were raised to believe in Christ (or perhaps came to believe in Him). If someone came to you and told you about a different god, and that you needed to give your life to this new god and serve him, you would think it ridiculous. You already serve Christ; why would you want to change?

2. The missionary has misrepresented Christ.... as have MANY missionaries that went to 3d-world people and tried to Westernize them. Christ meets people where they are. The change of heart comes gradually, as the Holy Spirit does His work.

3. Honestly, I DON'T KNOW what God will decide about these people. That is 100% God's decision, and none of ours. But I wish more Christians were not so eager to consign these people to Hell for "rejecting Christ," when these people have not truly met Christ... at least not in a way that is recognizable to us Westernized Christians. It is not for us to judge, and it is not for us to know, until we reach Heaven... hopefully, along with a whole host of people that we will be surprised to see there.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No man comes to the father except by me."

[Twilly Spree]

Beautifully said EireWolf

[cbwing0]

No they do not, there are certain beliefs in the Catholic church about the inherent Good in people and those that believe in divine providence.

Here the nature of man according to a Catholic source:

"Adam and Eve sinned and thus experienced the results of sin. Alienation from God and his paradise were first in their terrible deprivations (Gen. 3: 22-24). Many of the original consequences of the sin of the first parents have come upon all men (Gen. 3: 16-19). However, the original sin itself has not been transmitted or imputed, as such (Ezek. 18, Rom. 5). "The soul that sinneth, it shall die…," wrote the prophet (Ezek. 18: 20). Adam did introduce sin into the world, though, and thus create an environment in which sin could prosper (Rom. 5: 12 ff.)" (http://www.bibletruths.net/archives/BTARO47.htm).

This is slightly different from the doctrine that all men are sinful by virtue of "original sin," but it still acknowledges the fact that all men are sinful, especially if we look up the verse referred to in the quote: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned..." (Romans 5:12, italics mine). In addition, predestination is not at odds with the doctrine that people who reject the gopsel go to hell.

But, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. I don't know the status of "righteous heretics" like Ghandi and etc., but then again, I'm God. I think (don't know for sure) that it's better never to have heard of Jesus and live your life than hear of Him and be a sinner.

Exactly what I would have said, although probably with far fewer words.

[EireWolf]

But, that doesn't change the fact that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation.

That's true]Jesus Christ is the door through which all must walk to reach the Father.[/b] How that works exactly is (thankfully) not up to you or me.

[Twilly Spree]

I wasn't referring to predestination. I believe you completely misinterpreted my post. Without going into a lengthy explanation, the Catholic Church holds to the idea that if a person believes in "providence" or the idea that there is a God that rules over all, will be accepted into heaven. The Catholic Church also believes that there is inherent Good in some people. This inherent good is not good deeds only but that spirit that calls them to follow God.

This is contradictory with many other demonations. But its my belief.

[cbwing0]

This is contradictory with many other demonations. But its my belief.

That's nice, but it's unbiblical.

I apologize, as it does appear that I misunderstood your post (at least on the point of confusing predestination with providence). However, now that you have stated your position with greater detail, there are other problems: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder" (James 2:19). Clearly, more is necessary than simple belief in "a God".

[Twilly Spree]

I'd prefer you not refer to it "unbiblical" when it is a belief of another denomination. I know many people don't agree. I've seen it first hand when my Christian sorority went and talked to the brothers of St. Marks (my church). Alot of people had problems with this idea. But that's what we believe. So don't spout verses at me as if I'm magically going to change my mind.

Also just because you believe in Jesus doesn't mean you're going to heaven you actually have to live a Christian life. I'm not saying that just because you believe in providence you go to heaven. You still have to be a good person.

[cbwing0]

I'd prefer you not refer to it "unbiblical" when it is a belief of another denomination.

It is not wrong to refer to something as unbiblical if that is a true statement. If you could show me the biblical support for your belief on this matter, then I will retract my statement; otherwise, it stands.

[Ashley]

Don't get ugly here guys, or we will shut this thread down and tell you to take it to PM's.

[Technomancer]

As it comes to the Catholic position, we can refer to the catechism

843: The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

and moreover, from Nostra Aetate

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

Edit: Nothing in BibleTruths.com should be taken as representing Catholic belief with any degree of accuracy. It is not a Catholic site, and presents a very negative (and erroneous) description of both the Chruch's doctrine and history.

[Mithrandir]

...or we will shut this thread down and tell you to take it to PM's.

Note the not so subtle indication that we think this would be better suited to PM. Er, how to phrase this better...? How about this: "Take this to PM. If you don't, we'll close it." Or perhaps I read that wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

(Sorry, the logic got to me. )