Christmas, a pagan holiday

Postby **express** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:05 am

I was listening to a preaching on a Chirstian radio station, and I found out that Christmas and many other practices and holidays adopted by the Catholic Church, and many non-Catholic churches, originated from pagan practices when early Christians tried to convert pagan nations. However, they ended up compromising and twisted the pagan rituals and holidays and "Christianized" them, such as Christmas. I was a Catholic myself, so I'm familiar with some of their practices. Just as I said in my post in the Bible Study thread "Holy Spirit," please don't get angry at me. Just like in the book of Ezekiel, I want to be a watchman and warn people of heresies.

Here's a website if you want to know what I mean about Christians mixing doctrines with pagan religions.

http://northernway.org/god.html

(Click on Similar Gods)

Postby **Straylight** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:13 am

The origins of Christmas are true.. however I don't have any problems with celebrating Christmas myself. Why? Because what we celebrate has in my mind nothing to do with any pagan religion whatsoever. I think that the main issue with Christmas these days is the "commercialisation" of it.

Postby **Gypsy** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:24 am

djnoz wrote:Because what we celebrate has in my mind nothing to do with any pagan religion whatsoever.

Yes, my thinking as well.

I was listening to a radio program that was covering this topic the other day. Some lady called in and demanded how good, Christian people could possibly put up a Christmas tree in their homes to celebrate Christ's birth. She likened it to bringing a statue of Buddha in to celebrate Easter. The men taking her call answered it very much like I thought I would.

Even thought the Christmas tree tradition was an original pagan practice, I daresay that no one actually worships their tree. It's not an idol. And since many people aren't aware of the origins of the Christmas tree - it's not really a distraction from the true meaning of Christmas. If people want to get technical in that aspect, I hope they plan on celebrating Christ's birth sometime in the middle of August - because that's when theologians estimate Jesus was actually born.

My take on the entire matter is this: Remembering Christmas' true purpose is a matter of the heart. No amount of lights, plastic Santas, or Christmas specials on tv is going to force you into forgetting that Christmas is a time to remember and reflect on the birth of our Savior. If you really understand why Christmas time is so special, then I see no need to doubt or toss out any Christmas traditions.

Postby **madphilb** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:27 am

There was a thread on this that someone started shortly after the site opened, but I can't find it (I think the search is broken, I'm not getting any hits on "Christmas, but maybe I typoed or something, anyway).

I have to say personally that most of the preachers that get on their "high horse" about things like this, have way too much time on their hands. They want to fuss about the origins of those things, yet almost never will look further back at the origins of Christianity itself, Judisim, and on top of that, I bet they're still holding their services on Sunday LOL

It's certainly ok if someone doesn't want to celebrate those holidays... but the holidays are more of what you make of them than anything else.

A friend of mine bombarded me with e-mails (forwarded articles and sites) the other year as she was dealing with this sort of issue (more from a Messianic Jewish perspective than anything), I've seen articles that go as far as to claim scripture says that you shouldn't have a Christmas tree in your house. (this friend does this sort of thing with everything she's "working through" with God).

I didn't read this article, I've seen plenty in the past, they all say about the same thing, and frankly I'm having a hard enough time getting "in the mood" this year as it is.

It's a good FYI, but it's not going to change how I celebrate, I've already worked that one out for myself.

PHIL

Postby **Technomancer** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:40 am

That some of the holidays or seasonal practices originate from pagan beliefs is no issue for me. These traditions have certainly been long since Christianized, and provide an important link of cultural continuity. It is true that Christ was not born at this time, however that does not change the meaning of holiday.

You might also want to consider the useful quality of how Christmas and Easter are currently timed. Christmas is near the winter solstice, mid winter and the darkest time of the year. Into this is born hope. Similarily, Easter is also linked with springtime- what better way to symbolize the triumph of life over death?

Postby **Mithrandir** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:09 am

Here's my take on this (and probably only my take, :lol:

) When I was growing up, the Christmas tree always went up in a room that I was not allowed in (the "Sitting Room," where the nice furniture was). We had an elaborate nativity set that went up in the living room, where we had the 'every day' furniture. During Christmas time, I was allowed to go into the room and sit around the tree, which made it more special. To this day, the smell of a Christmas tree brings back wonderful memories of extra "priveliges (sic, lol)."

I guess it was an intersting below the radar reminder of where everything goes. The nativity scene was right there where we were. A constant reminder of what the season is really all about for me.

Postby **Yoda47** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:03 am

I would agree with our friendly administators. It's not the act, but what's in the heart. Like Paul said (I forgot which book. I probobly shouldn't be talking on the phone and posting at the same time

) Christ frees us from all that stuff, but just like the biblical issue with eating meat offered to idols, as long as our hearts are in the right place, there's nothing wrong with it, but I still wouldn't fault someone who doesn't agree with the practice either.

Wow, that was wordy.....

Postby **majanthehun** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:33 am

BUT, along with what yoda said, Paul also says that if your practices cause another brother to stumble you should not do it. i don't know any Christians who are tripped up by the idea of celebrating Christmas, but if i knew one, i would take down my decorations when they come over (thank goodness i don't know anyone like that... i went a little overboard on decorations this year).

but all in all we seem to be agreeing that it's just a holiday and its the thought that counts so its all good.

yeah. i like christmas.

Postby **Mithrandir** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:43 pm

Boy did I do a double take when I. read THAT. I was thinkin' "What movie did Yoda say that in?!? :lol:

Hmm, I'm not sure I would take it to that extremme, but you do make a very valid point. It's probably because I just can't see how it could be offensive, though.

Postby **Tycho** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:15 pm

oldphilosopher wrote:Boy did I do a double take when I. read THAT. I was thinkin' "What movie did Yoda say that in?!?

Hmm, I'm not sure I would take it to that extremme, but you do make a very valid point. It's probably because I just can't see how it could be offensive, though.

I had a similar moment, only I was trying to figure out when Yoda showed up in the bible. Must be in the apocrapha...

Postby **Yoda47** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:34 pm

Tycho wrote:I had a similar moment, only I was trying to figure out when Yoda showed up in the bible. Must be in the apocrapha...

It's in Hezekiah.

All that odd, hard to find stuff is in Hezekiah.

Postby **Destiny** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:12 pm

You know you guys raised a vallid point with Christmas, but it's the same with Easter, the bunny, the baskets.... thats how come I'm casting my lot with all of you guys. Your answers sounded pretty good to me.

Postby **Azier the Swordsman** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:31 pm

Cephas wrote:And a little joke anecdote about how Santa Claus is a scientific impossibility:
http://answeringislam.org/Humor/santa.html

lol

Postby **Technomancer** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:42 pm

That's why the tomten always seemed to make so much more sense..

Oh yeah, Easter is the sunday after the Paschal full moon, it is only a convenient coincidence that it is so near the vernal equinox. The fact that it's tied to a lunar calendar tends to make it wander a bit on a calendar that is fundamentally solar (Ramadan has this same tendency to shuffle around on the Western calendar).

Postby **Mithrandir** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:06 pm

[quote="Yoda47"]It's in Hezekiah. ]

:wow!:

I thought I was the only one who said that! My favorite comeback for those kind of quotes (like, "God helps those who help themselves, etc") is "I think that's in Hezekia 4:12."

Postby **Ashley** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:11 pm

Well side tangent about Easter--confirming some of you guy's beliefs, it was indeed "placed" over a pagan holiday called Lupercalia, if I remember correctly, and it was a fertility festival, sort of comparable to our Valentine's Day (lovers gave each other gifts, etc.) Thus the bunny became associated with that holiday. Christmas replaced Saturnalia, a gift-giving holiday in honor of the Roman deity Saturn.

But I'm in agreement with what the others have said: Christmas is more what you make of it. Traditions aren't harmful in and of themselves, it's when you start placing more of a priority on them than the true meaning that things get skewed.

On a side note, Christmas was always interesting at my family growing up--we never believed in Santa Claus. When we (the kids) were little, we didn't really care where the presents came from. When we grew up a bit, we kind of naturally assumed/figured out it came from our parents and it made us appriciate things even more. But overall, I think that system made me really treasure christmas and focus more easily on what it was really about.

Postby **Benu** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:38 pm

I don't belive a X-mas tree should be placed in a church. But if you want to have a tree in your house well go ahead I don't think your going to go too hell because of it. Anyway I'm celebrating Hanukkah this year because I'm jewish it's better than X-mas because there's 8 crazy nights!!! Oh and yea I'm still celebrating X-mas too!! Like More times the gifts heehee :evil:

!!! But remember the true reason for the season.

Postby **Locke** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 4:50 pm

Benu wrote: But remember the true reason for the season.

amen!

Postby **Azier the Swordsman** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 5:02 pm

oldphilosopher wrote::wow!:

I thought I was the only one who said that! My favorite comeback for those kind of quotes (like, "God helps those who help themselves, etc") is "I think that's in Hezekia 4:12."

I once heard a funny story about a pastor who asked his congregation to study the book of Hezekiah in preparation for his next sermon. The following Sunday, he asked for by a show of hands, how many had studied the book of Hezekiah that week. Everyone's hands shot up. The pastor replied: "I have news for you, there is no book of Hezekiah. I will now begin my sermon on lying."

Postby **Gypsy** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:48 pm

Chris4150 wrote:"I have news for you, there is no book of Hezekiah. I will now begin my sermon on lying."

Ouch .. how humbling.

Postby **Twilly Spree** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:21 pm

Express, what distinction are you making when you say Catholic and non-Catholic in your post. Just wondering.

Christmas, a pagan holiday

Christmas, a pagan holiday

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