Why do some christians treat homosexuals badly and is it a sin?

[Roy Mustang]

A lot of christians forget the words, love the person, hate the sin.

They end up hating the person and in the end sin for showing hate to others.


[font="Book Antiqua"][color="Red"]Col. Roy Mustang[/color][/font]

[Solid Ronin]

I dont believe that it was my choice

Wasn't my choice to be born a sinner either, doesn't stop me from trying to make myself better.

I'm disgusted at you all, You all wanna shake this man's hand just for being a sinner, I have a porn problem, where the hell is my parade?

<modsnip: You have legitimate concerns, but that doesn't excuse being rude.>

[Midori]

I have a porn problem too, and yet somehow I'm a moderator. Can whoever's parading parade for both of us too?

Remember who Jesus hung out with during his ministry. It wasn't the 'righteous' pharisees, it was the tax collectors, sinners, and prostitutes.

[ShiroiHikari]

Well this thread went to a pretty unpleasant place.

[Midori]

I think it is recoverable. However, I may be beginning to regret belaying my urges to lock it on sight at the beginning. Remember that we have to show grace to even those who do not show it themselves.

EDIT: I decided I'd lock it after all.

Looking over everything in this thread, just remember what almost everyone here has been saying: that it is entirely possible and admirable to love the sinner and hate the sin.

EDIT 2: I am now changing my mind and unlocking this thread, because I know several people have some good things to say here. Think of the prior lockage as a temporary suspension rather than a bannination. : )

[Jingo Jaden]

If you ask me, states of sin are not to be encouraged even on the point from just admitting them. When suffering from sins hard to alter, such as I do, ones focus, and long term hope should at the very least be framed within the concept of defeating ones sin. However pleasurable, needed or socially-pressured they might seem. They are not unalterable, and thus, never justified for anyone to have. Sin, in it's most simple description, is a perfect insult to God from imperfect beings. I live, eat and breathe in this environment, but I would rather die than pride myself of that fact. What little contribution I can do to change this, whether it be as little as two cents in the long run, will be of significance on both a moral and spiritual term.

Fermy6, my love and respect for you is unconditional. My love and respect for your character and situation frankly is not. As long as something is alterable to the better there is no justification not to be chasing that route, discarding my own hypocrisy in the matter, as I am a terrible role model by any standards. Your level of emotions might not have been your choice, your willingness to sacrifice personally to alter into something new is entirely in your hands however. Is it gonna be done in a day? Of course not, perhaps not even in 20 years. Perhaps you won't succeed at all, but try you should, and research you must. If you dedicate your life to altering according to the teachings of Jesus and the laws of God, then there is nothing wrong with it, and the only guarantee is that it will be filled with hard work, difficult challenges and countless failures.

But it will matter, and it will be worth it.

And for the rest of you, if you think I belittle anyone with my statement then I will happily mention of my own worthlessness in my struggles. The overall weak contributions and terrible standards I uphold. I fall before God not worthy, or able to look at his feet due to my shame. Call it hypocrisy or overwhelming weakness, but I would discourage others from errors, even among those I struggle with myself such as lust.

Hate sin, love the sinner. Discourage the sin, encourage for moral and spiritual improvements for the sinner. Alter yourselves not just according to your desires, but to the example set before you by Jesus. Go two miles when asked to go one, and if you fall, get back on your feet. If the one next to you falls, extend your hand to his or her aid. Do not encourage him or her to lie down for we are all asked to walk the straight and narrow. Be thankful for grace, for without it, there would be no salvation, but be mindful of the deceit of the heart, and the deceit of you can give yourself.

[Cognitive Gear]

Wasn't my choice to be born a sinner either, doesn't stop me from trying to make myself better.

I'm disgusted at you all, You all wanna shake this man's hand just for being a sinner, I have a porn problem, where the hell is my parade?

Honestly, I don't think that these things are quite the same when it comes to being open about it. Openly being gay has, in recent and current times, caused families and friends to abandon the person opening up about it. By coming forth with it, you face that very real risk of being abandoned or at least ridiculed.

To run that risk for the sake of being true to yourself and honest with others is bravery.

Now, I would say that being open about having a porn problem is brave as well, but I don't think it's stigmatized in the same way.

[ShiroiHikari]

I'm disgusted at you all, You all wanna shake this man's hand just for being a sinner, I have a porn problem, where the hell is my parade?

<modsnip: Rudeness also does not excuse rudeness>

[Nate]

the majority of gays, lesbians, and other LGBT folks don't want to be that way

Er, I don't think that's correct. Most of them don't go "I wish I was straight." Most of them just wish they could be accepted by people, that they could be free to be who they are without getting bullied or lynched or discriminated against. There are a few self-hating LGBTs, but I think they're probably the smaller group. Education and social programs have done a lot to help them be accepted. It's not quite to the level it needs to be, but then again it took decades for blacks to be given rights equal to whites as well.

I'm just looking forward to the day when I'm a great-uncle or whatever and one of my brother's grandchildren reads in their history textbooks about how LGBTs were treated in these times, and looks at me like I have a toaster on my head, same as how we look at our history textbooks and see how blacks were treated before the Civil Rights Act and say "Man how could they do that to people?"

To encourage an LGBT person to be straight or be the man/woman they were born as, even if it's done in the nicest most loving manner possible, can still come across as not being accepting/respectful of that person and not understanding where they're coming from.

I am quoting this because Rushia is 100% right. Good prize. Ding!

does it make you a homophobe if you don't want to be exposed to public displays of it?

I think it depends on a couple of things. If you're okay with public displays of straight affection, but not gay affection, I'd say at the very least it makes you a bit hypocritical. Sorry, but I think it's the truth.

Now, if you're talking about someone going "Hey watch this anime" and it's a yaoi anime and you're just not interested, I think the question is how are you turning it down? If you're like "No yaoi is evil!" then yeah you probably come off as a homophobe. If you just say "Eh I'm not really interested in that kind of stuff," then no, it doesn't. I mean if someone was like "Hey watch this episode of Prince of Tennis!" I'd just say "Nah it isn't really my thing, not particularly interested." That doesn't mean I hate tennis. XD

Seriously, as a woman I have a habit of falling in love with gay men.

I said "Guys I'm like you
I like monster trucks too
Wanna see how many pushups I can do?
I just wish I was queer
So I could get chicks."

Chicks dig guys that are queer
Guys that don't dig chicks
That don't dig guys like me
See I'm not queer I'm too ugly

[K. Ayato]

I agree with Gear. Even if among Christian families, should a member reveal that there is an issue with pornography, chances are the rest of the family won't change how they treat the fellow member.

It's one thing to wear "Love the sinner, hate the sin" on your chest, but when it's someone close to you, it's very challenging to adhere to that very statement. Speaking from personal experience. Only God could enable me to love someone in my family who's now openly gay. Someone whom all I want him to know is how much I love him, regardless of his choices.

The more important thing is, will we allow God to enable us to love as He loves, especially to those we unconsciously label as outcasts?

[MasterDias]

Now, I would say that being open about having a porn problem is brave as well, but I don't think it's stigmatized in the same way.

Basically, this.
For whatever reason, I've always gotten the impression that quite a few Christians consider it substantially worse than any one of a number of different sins. Even despite the fact that "Hate the sin, love the sinner" is commonly quoted, I don't think it's honestly carried out as often as it should be in reality.

[Midori]

I realize that I am being extra-strict on politeness in this thread. That is because it touches on matters that are very difficult for some people. When you're in goof-off or even a light-hearted General thread, it's often okay to be comically snarky or jokingly crass, but everyone needs to keep their snarkiness and argumentativeness away from threads where people could really get hurt by it.

I know we've linked it enough times that most people don't read it anymore, but do please go back to Mithrandir's excellent post on respect:
https://www.christiananime.net/showthread.php?t=55255

[LadyRushia]

Er, I don't think that's correct. Most of them don't go "I wish I was straight." Most of them just wish they could be accepted by people, that they could be free to be who they are without getting bullied or lynched or discriminated against.

Then I stand corrected. I was thinking more along the lines of those who haven't yet come to accept themselves or who are in the process of figuring it out. I know that's something my friend dealt with, especially since she's a Christian.

[TGJesusfreak]

I have a proposal for all of us to consider. you dont have to think it is a sin. this is for both sides of this debate.

Can we all make a pledge to try and take in the Gay's and Lesbians of our community? Because, if it is a sin, then the deep love of God has a chance to change them, and if it's not a sin, then we have done the great commision and spread the message of Jesus.

I hearby pledge not to EVER judge or treat a gay or lesbian any different than I would any other person because no matter the case, we are all sinners.

Anyone who agrees with me I encourage, no matter what side you're o, to join me in this pledge.

[Atria35]

^ i'm with you TG.

I hearby pledge not to EVER judge or treat a gay or lesbian any different than I would any other person because no matter the case, we are all sinners.

[Yuki-Anne]

I'm hesitant to offer my two cents, but the conclusion I have come to regarding homosexuality is this: It is my personal conviction that homosexual behavior is sinful. However, I have friends who are Christians and believe differently.

It is also my conviction that it is possible to be both wrong and Christian simultaneously. I don't have all the answers, and it is quite likely that there are matters (perhaps even this one) that I am wrong about. So I will trust that God's grace is bigger and that anyone (heterosexual or not) who trusts in the blood of Christ will be saved, as He promised. If a fellow Christian believes from their deepest conviction that it is okay to be homosexual, then I will love then and accept them as I would any other brother and sister, and I will pray that God will allow the truth to be known, whether they are the ones who need to know it, or I am. After all, I could be the one who's wrong. But I trust that God's grace is bigger than my wrongness, or anybody else's.

[Midori]

I'm gonna do you one further and say I pledge to do good to all people when I can, if I can, regardless of what they do to me.

Actually I already made that pledge a long long time ago.

[Nate]

I will state publicly that while I appreciate your sentiment, TG, and think that it is a very good pledge and I wish everyone here would be true to it, I have voiced my concerns about it in PM so as not to turn this into an ugly debate.

I will say that I personally have been following that pledge for a while though.

[LadyRushia]

It is also my conviction that it is possible to be both wrong and Christian simultaneously.

Quoted for emphasis. If this wasn't true, there would be no point to Christianity.

[TGJesusfreak]

I will state publicly that while I appreciate your sentiment, TG, and think that it is a very good pledge and I wish everyone here would be true to it, I have voiced my concerns about it in PM so as not to turn this into an ugly debate.

I appriciate it Nate.

I want to take this 2 sided.

For those who tihnk it is a sin

For those who think it is a sin and want to try and prevent it. I think that if you think it is a sin then you shold not compromise on your beleifs. I say that if you want to prevent it because you think it's a sin then you should dislike the sin.

BUT once again do not think that the person is terrible. This is the major problem. you can try and prevent it all you want, but if it hurts the other person deeply then you make it WORSE, not better. Please be mindful of that.

for those who think it is not a sin

I will reverse things. Those who see christians say they think it is a sin tend to hold malice towards those christians. That is my experience anyway. those of us who dont think it is a sin should stand up for their principals just as much as the opposite sides. But I ask that they both be repectful of the christians who dont line up with their viewpoint.



Basically all I wanted from this thread is for us to stop and realize that we NEED to repect eachother. Because if christians wont, then who will? Respect is the word we all need to know and live by. Respect people always, just not at the expense of your convictions. That is all I have to say on that for now.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

In my experience, I've had four close friends come out of the closet. In time, I've become more comfortable of them. In time (as well as studying theology, granted I am NO expert) I've also come to my own conclusion that monogamous homosexual relationships is not wrong at all nor do I think it offends God. Monogamous homosexual relationships is different than how it was often described in the Bible (systematic rape of a losing army, temple prostitution, etc)

Like you said, TG, if we are to embrace an ethic of Christ, then we have to love and respect for all people. Loving another is far more than just being kind to someone. It is a deep compassion and pure selflessness to everyone. There is only one kind of love and that's agape love. The well-being of another person should be more important than our own.

So if a gay person wants to be in a monogamous homosexual relationship with another gay person, I think Christians should be okay with this. If Christ came to fulfill the law, then I think this overturns other instances where the Old Testament is against it.

What is important to note is that in Corinthians, the Greek term for "homosexual offender" is written as "Arsenokoites". This, however, does translate to homosexual offender. It translates to "male sexual offender". The proper word in ancient Greek that means "homosexual/gay offender" is "Androkoites", which Paul never wrote. However on the flip side, his condemnation of homosexuality seems to be more blatant in Romans. I also question Paul's validity as the "truth". Of course by the same token then I also have to be suspicious of the gospels too. It's all quite a conundrum of total uncertainty.

But anyways, lots of scholars debate as to what Paul meant and stuff (i.e. why did he use specifically "Arsenokoites"), but I just bring this up to say that things aren't as clear as presented.

Obviously I hold somewhat of a more "liberal" view of the Bible. And no doubt plenty of people here will disagree with me, lol. (Except maybe Nate?) I respect this because I know where you all come from. I've been there. But I also feel (to be honest) that I have progressed in my beliefs. Others will no doubt say I have not progressed, but strayed away. And I respect this belief but I hope you all respect mine because I think these things need to be talked about among Christians.

To me the only morality is Christ-like love. Anything that is not love is to sin. And because there's very little we can really know, I think that is important is to not focus on the rules, but instead focus on love. Rules are for fairness and everything, but I believe the love of Christ goes beyond fairness. Instead it's submission. I am less and you are more. So I don't care of homosexuality is a sin or not and I don't believe Christ would care if someone is a homosexual or not either. It has no bearing on how I should love you.

[TopazRaven]

I have a proposal for all of us to consider. you dont have to think it is a sin. this is for both sides of this debate.

Can we all make a pledge to try and take in the Gay's and Lesbians of our community? Because, if it is a sin, then the deep love of God has a chance to change them, and if it's not a sin, then we have done the great commision and spread the message of Jesus.

I hearby pledge not to EVER judge or treat a gay or lesbian any different than I would any other person because no matter the case, we are all sinners.

Anyone who agrees with me I encourage, no matter what side you're o, to join me in this pledge.

I'll join you most definitly! As for your second post about respect TG, I know it's something I personally need to work on. I've stayed away from this thread for awhile because I knew I'd just end up saying something offensive and rude to those whose opinions differ from mine. In the end I'm really glad you made this thread though, as Christians we DO need to learn how to accept, love and respect others. Even if they don't agree with us.

[Mr. Hat'n'Clogs]

My response to gay(ness? How do you say it as a noun without using homosexuality?) is kind of interesting. When I was old enough to know about it, all I needed to think was it's terrible and they're terrible and that was it. I was a huge moron back then, so if I ever say I was a huge idiot in middle school, you know partly why. As I grew older, I realized that was bad, so, in thought at least, I tried to love the sinner, hate the sin, as I still do think it is a sin.

In my Film as Literature class we recently watched the film Philadelphia, which is a movie about discrimination, specifically about gays. I grew noticeably uncomfortable, I didn't want to watch this. It really challenged me to actually follow this idea of loving the sinner and hating the sin. It makes me realize something about myself, and really how uncomfortable it made me feel. I knew I could agree with the message without compromising my beliefs, yet I didn't want to watch it, because of how foreign a sin it is to me. I've wanted to hurt someone or lusted, but I've never wanted to be gay. So I resolve to try to be understanding, and while I certainly don't want to do anything harmful to a gay, it would be and is difficult for me to interact with anything more than the basic politeness I try to give everyone. I also have a hard enough time interacting with straight people I don't really know, so add on that extra level and it makes for something I'd have to struggle with.

I don't normally post in theology threads because I'm still trying to figure out what I think about things, so I feel no need to debate them when I wouldn't know what I was debating for, but I have a pretty good idea about how I feel about this, so I think I should post here.

[Nate]

I don't berate you for that, Hat. I can understand how you feel. This is why I fully support teaching about sexual identity earlier in schools, so that it will become more accepted. I think how you feel might be similar to how students in the 60s and 70s felt when desegregation was occurring. They'd never had to really deal with blacks before, and perhaps felt uncomfortable around them. But those who were in lower grades when it happened and grew up alongside those of different races, they became more accepting of them, and didn't find it uncomfortable. It was the ones who had grown up most of their lives with the "Blacks are inferior to whites" mindset that probably found it the most difficult to adjust to.

Again, bigotry is a very deep-rooted thing in the human psyche, but so long as you recognize it's wrong and work to change that, I think you'll be all right. :3

[TGJesusfreak]

I'll join you most definitly! As for your second post about respect TG, I know it's something I personally need to work on. I've stayed away from this thread for awhile because I knew I'd just end up saying something offensive and rude to those whose opinions differ from mine. In the end I'm really glad you made this thread though, as Christians we DO need to learn how to accept, love and respect others. Even if they don't agree with us.

Thanks ^^]christian[/B].


and @Topaz directly I am NOT a hypocrite here, I admit that I am just as guilty as you are with accepting people and being nice sometimes.


And to the rest of you, I want to share kindof a personal story with you. I have a multi-handicapped 30 year old sister, she has the mind of a 6 month old baby. Her body is broken and she is a bit deformed physically. Society tries to judge her as a useless freak. They call her names and say she is a waste of human life... "because she serves no purpose". People have called me names for taking care of her and said that she will hold me down and make my life harder in later life. you know what i say? SO WHAT.

I guess what I am getting at, is that I do have an understanding of what it is like for sociey to judge you. and I think that love should be our guide. Not hate. I think it is a sin, but I still love gays and lesbians so much, just as I can love my sister. They are both beautiful and equal in God's eyes. End of Story.

In my Film as Literature class we recently watched the film Philadelphia, which is a movie about discrimination, specifically about gays. I grew noticeably uncomfortable, I didn't want to watch this. It really challenged me to actually follow this idea of loving the sinner and hating the sin. It makes me realize something about myself, and really how uncomfortable it made me feel. I knew I could agree with the message without compromising my beliefs, yet I didn't want to watch it, because of how foreign a sin it is to me. I've wanted to hurt someone or lusted, but I've never wanted to be gay. So I resolve to try to be understanding, and while I certainly don't want to do anything harmful to a gay, it would be and is difficult for me to interact with anything more than the basic politeness I try to give everyone. I also have a hard enough time interacting with straight people I don't really know, so add on that extra level and it makes for something I'd have to struggle with.

I have to say that this is always a struggle for me as well. I admit it. Loving no matter what without conditions is WAY harder than people give it credit for.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

I have to say that this is always a struggle for me as well. I admit it. Loving no matter what without conditions is WAY harder than people give it credit for.

I am glad you posted this. =) This is one of the biggest things about Christianity which I think people miss. It's hard because it makes us vulnerable and weak. But as Paul writes, when I am weak then I am strong. Weakness is true strength, yes?

As Dostoevsky once wrote, "Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing compared to love in dreams." Very true, right? =) I think this is true when it comes to love.

And remember this: There is no such thing as conditional love. Love by definition must be unconditional. When your love begins to have conditions, it is no longer love because it is no longer reflective of God's grace.

[TopazRaven]

TG, I hope you didn't think I was actually calling you a hypocrite, because that wasn't my intention at all. 0.o

Meanwhile I agree with you completly, wither you think being gay is a sin or not you should love people no matter who they are or what their sexuality is. Also, you do a very great service by taking care of your sister! Some people wouldn't even want to try.

[TGJesusfreak]

I am glad you posted this. =) This is one of the biggest things about Christianity which I think people miss. It's hard because it makes us vulnerable and weak. But as Paul writes, when I am weak then I am strong. Weakness is true strength, yes?

As Dostoevsky once wrote, "Love in action is a harsh and dreadful thing compared to love in dreams." Very true, right? =)

And remember this: There is no such thing as conditional love. Love by definition must be unconditional. When your love begins to have conditions, it is no longer love because it is no longer reflective of God's grace.

Good point. Me and Steenajack talked about this on the phone a week ago. There isnt "true love" and regular love. The only real love IS true love.

Also, quoting Dostoevsky, niiiiice touch dude. XD awesome quote. Great post.

TG, I hope you didn't think I was actually calling you a hypocrite, because that wasn't my intention at all. 0.o

Meanwhile I agree with you completly, wither you think being gay is a sin or not you should love people no matter who they are or what their sexuality is. Also, you do a very great service by taking care of your sister! Some people wouldn't even want to try.

no no no, I know you weren't, I was calling myself a hypocrite a bit I guess. or... I was not being a hypocrite by saying that I wasnt a hypocrite and admitted I was a hypocrite..... XDDDDD If that makes any sense.

And thanks. I love my sister a lot. You should be thanksing my 2 sisters on this site as well. They do more than I do for her, I think so anyway. *pushes thread back on topic*

[Cognitive Gear]

I just feel that respect has been lost today to political correctness. and that we cant disagree openly without the opposite side being evil. I was afraid that this thread would turn into a "Gay hater thread" but I am glad to see that people are willing to stand up and act the way that they are, christian.

I'm pretty certain that the goal of political correctness is to show respect to everyone. That's why we have politically correct terms, so that we have words to use that are known to be inoffensive. The term has been demonized by some people over time, but when it comes to politics, what hasn't?

Anyways, overall I think that this has been a good thread. We may not all agree on the specifics, but we are generally united in our efforts to be Christ like. This is the kind of thread that helps our little corner of the internet shine.

[Shao Feng-Li]

Wasn't my choice to be born a sinner either, doesn't stop me from trying to make myself better.

QFT. You kinda said what I was to cowardly to say.

So if a gay person wants to be in a monogamous homosexual relationship with another gay person, I think Christians should be okay with this.

Being OK with someone's sin is hating them in the worse way. Jesus dined with the sinners. He did not tell them that their lifestyles were ok.