The Day Of Judgement

[Midori]

I personally decided that I would walk out of any sermon about revelation about 10 years ago since they rarely serve to enhance my faith and seem to sheerly exist to freak people out and cause them to act in fear, rather than love. That, and the glaring level of inaccuracy and reading the news into the bible that tends to occur in sermons and talks of this type make me want to hurl.

I just recently listened to a sermon at my church about Revelation, but it was about how beautiful the kingdom of heaven would be, rather than about doom and brimstone.

[TopazRaven]

I guess I'm just afraid I'm going to be left behind. xD I don't have that problem at chruch considering I haven't been to one in 7 years. *Hides*. I know, I need to get back! In least I read the bible thought right?

[Furen]

I haven't been to one in 7 years. *Hides*. I know, I need to get back!

Not trying to but heads or anything, but you keep telling us you should, if you are serious, then why not just test out a few local churches?

[TopazRaven]

Yeah I know. Something always happens and I don't end up going. I am supposed to go this Sunday. We're just going to go to the one I went to as a child because we don't really know of anywhere else at the moment. It's a Methodist church. Out of curiousty, it it bad if I don't go every Sunday, but like every other Sunday? I usually voluenteer at a cat shelter on Sunday.

[Atria35]

If it's any consolation, I don't go to church at all. I just don't have the time or patience (or gas money to get there) for one. I've been to quite a few, but haven't found any where I jived with the congregation- and that's big for me.

[ShiroiHikari]

I don't go to church regularly either.

[Cognitive Gear]

I think that you will get some varied opinions on this, but here is what my experience has been:

Over the last 3 years, I have hardly set foot into a church, outside of the occasional holiday or family gathering. (for various reasons that could make up it's own post)

As time has gone on, I have found that this time away has been the best thing that could have happened to me, in regards to my "walk with the Lord". In this time away, I have grown to be more Christ-like, and have become more knowledgeable about the Bible and Christians in general. I am currently hoping that God will provide me with a church to attend at least on a semi-regular basis.

I'm not saying that not attending church is something that everyone should do. I just wanted to point out that for some people, it works to bolster their faith.


On a final related note: a church is not the same as "the Church". It is perfectly possible to remain faithful to the Church while not attending a church.

[ShiroiHikari]

On a final related note: a church is not the same as "the Church". It is perfectly possible to remain faithful to the Church while not attending a church.

This.

[TopazRaven]

Ok, it's good to know I'm not the only one who hasn't been to church in awhile then. My only fear is...I stopped going when I was 13 because I found it boring. I'm afraid I'll still find it boring which is probably another reason I've put off going. It would make me feel terrible if I got bored at a church when I'm supposed to be paying attention and worshipping God.

[Furen]

Okay, well I'm not saying anything bad, I just noticed you said it a bunch through out the board, but for the worshiping God, it doesn't have to just be at church.

[Peanut]

With all this talk of attending Church I figure I might as well come in and say while you can be a Christian without attending church in the sense that we think of it fellowship with other believers. While we tend to think of Christianity in individualistic terms (what God does for me) really, I think it is about the community (what God does for us). Its because of this that I would encourage just about everyone who isn't attending a church to find one and not just start attending but get connected. I'll also go one step further and say, while I love CAA, a website should never be a replacement for Christian fellowship in the real world (with some exceptions). Even most monks didn't go into complete solitude where it was just them and no one else. So, try and find a church but if you can't then maybe try and find a Bible study or some other group where Christians gather and talk about spiritual things. The latter is, in my opinion, equivalent to attending a church each Sunday.

Ok, it's good to know I'm not the only one who hasn't been to church in awhile then. My only fear is...I stopped going when I was 13 because I found it boring. I'm afraid I'll still find it boring which is probably another reason I've put off going. It would make me feel terrible if I got bored at a church when I'm supposed to be paying attention and worshipping God.

I can relate to this since I have a tendency to day dream during sermons and other things while in Church...and I do it pretty regularly. What usually helps me is to try and actively focus on God during each part of the service. More practically, during sermons when I take notes, I tend to pay better attention. I will also admit that it does help when the preacher is good and somewhat interesting (as horrible as that is to say).

[Nate]

I'm the opposite. I love the sermons and find them quite interesting and enjoy hearing them. The sermon is my favorite part (again, so long as it doesn't turn into a "This is how you should feel about these political and scientific issues" which given my location, is pretty much completely assured).

What I dislike is the singing and worship. I don't care for the songs that the choir sings or that a person has chosen to sing. I find them boring and uninteresting. Likewise, I don't enjoy singing and the words to most songs sung in churches these days are lame and poorly written.

For me, since I do not enjoy the singing, and do not enjoy the views expressed in sermons at the churches here, it's better for me to not go than it is for me to go. I like sermons, but when a sermon starts trying to push "This is how you should think" on me, I get mad. And I feel like it would be rude to get up and leave in the middle of a sermon, so to avoid that, best not to go in the first place.

Trying to find a non-conservative church in southern Virginia is pretty much impossible.

[Midori]

I don't think church is about the singing and the sermon. I think it's about the community. The heart of a church isn't in the sermon or the songs, it's in the potlucks and the conversations after service ends, in the relationships you build with people. At least that's what I think.

[Peanut]

I don't think church is about the singing and the sermon. I think it's about the community. The heart of a church isn't in the sermon or the songs, it's in the potlucks and the conversations after service ends, in the relationships you build with people. At least that's what I think.

I disagree sort of. I agree that community is at the heart but I see worship and sermons (or teaching) as a communal act. Granted, we tend to be very individualistic in our churches especially when it comes to worship so it's easy to not see it that way. It was pointed out to me a while ago that the greatest evidence for this is in the lyrics of our worship songs. There is a nasty tendency for them to use the word "I" instead of "we" which changes worship from a communal act to a personal one. It doesn't seem like it always was this way either.

[Radical Dreamer]

This is a super good article on going to church or not going to church that I think many participating in this conversation might find interesting. A few of you may have already read it, but I'll post it here anyways. XD

http://www.lifestream.org/bodylife.php?blid=32

That said, I've been extremely fortunate to find not just one, but two churches (one at home and one near my college town that's a sort of sister-church to the one in my hometown) that are really fantastic, scripture-based, culturally relevant, and apolitical, unless it's to say "guys stop freaking out about lolitics and do what Jesus told you to do." XD Church for me really is about being around other believers and hearing God's word from them. When you don't have m/any Christian friends in the non-internet world, it can be really difficult to not just totally dry out spiritually. That said, the fact that I've found two great churches to attend is literally a Godsend, but what I like about this article I've posted is that it acknowledges the differences in the needs of different people to have varying church experiences, while also drawing a line between "church" and "the Church." Anyways, enjoy!

[Peanut]

I'm torn about that article. On one hand I do agree with his central point that church is more than just a location. I've seen first hand the ugliness that can come from this attitude. On the other hand, I found most of his article to be overly pragmatic, individualistic, and filled with escapism. The escapism really bothers just like how it does with the rapture. I'm not a fan of recognizing problems within something and then pulling away for an extended period of time. To me that kind of stuff motivates an active response within the system and when it comes to something like this, I think that response actually is isolating to a believer. Not fully but you definitely are more limited in who you can contact when you pull entirely away from churches as a whole. I also don't like how he doesn't really recognize a side by side model of relating. Namely, doing something with people and coming to a feeling of community. Yes, its anonymous, but in some ways we are already doing this with other believers throughout the world. We don't know most of these people and yet there is a sense of community whenever you find out someone is a Christian. Even within our local communities, this seems to be a pretty common practice and yet there still is a level of relation that comes from finding that common ground even with a total stranger. This is the experience that I have whenever I go to my home church which would be considered a Mega Church. I guess what I'm saying is I see community in a little more broader sense. There's also just some things which he's not mentioning about organizations (especially when it comes to the church) that he should be if he wants to give an accurate representation of church history. Still his main point is good but I just don't like a lot of the other stuff he's saying. I just see someone whose been hurt and hasn't really gotten over it in this article.

[Radical Dreamer]

I just see someone whose been hurt and hasn't really gotten over it in this article.

I believe that's valid, though. I come from a family who's been hurt by the church numerous times over the course of many years, in the past and really recently. I think his metaphor about different kinds of pain--one that is fixed by pulling away, especially--is pretty accurate. And I think that it's necessary (on a case-by-case basis, for sure) to pull away from toxic situations where the institution of the church has become more important than the Body of Christ. That's what healing involves sometimes. I'm speaking from a really personal level for my family and not giving a whole lot of detail here so I understand if that's confusing. XD My LJ goes into far more detail, but anyways, I think he had lots of valid points to make. XD

Also that isn't to say someone who has to pull away from the church to heal should NEVER go back, but taking a leave for a while (while keeping oneself surrounded with Christian influences and staying in the Word) isn't a bad thing.

[mechana2015]

...I just see someone whose been hurt and hasn't really gotten over it in this article.

Have you ever tried to right a wrong in a large evangelical church or suggest a major change in attitude? It's practically impossible. At best you'll get a meeting where nothing happens and they tell you they'll pray about it, and at worst, no response at all, or being called out in front of the church.

If someone keeps getting stabbed in the hand with a fork at the dinner table, they're going to stop sitting next to the person that does it. I don't understand how people consistently fail to realize how spiritual or psychological pain can be just as bad as physical pain.

[J.D3]

I don't think there's any way that humans could know it beforehand- they had a similar belief in 30 AD (due to it being 30 years after His Death)

Um, actually AD 30 was approximately the date Jesus was executed (Jesus was born at 0 BC, hence the letters standing for "Before Christ.")

I agree with you totally though, there has been many a quack claiming to know the date of World's End but ultimately nobody except Our Father in Heaven knows.

(2012 movie = )

[J.D3]

Um, actually AD 30 was approximately the date Jesus was executed (Jesus was born at 0 BC, hence the letters standing for "Before Christ.")

I agree with you totally though, there has been many a quack claiming to know the date of World's End but ultimately nobody except Our Father in Heaven knows.

(2012 movie = )

(Forgot to add, the term "A.D" stands for "anno Domini" or "in the year of our Lord")

[Nate]

Jesus was born at 0 BC, hence the letters standing for "Before Christ."

Actually that's not true. There was no year 0. The calendar went from 1 BC directly to 1 AD. That's why the millennium started on 2001 instead of 2000.

Also, in addition to there being no year 0, most people place the date of Jesus' birth between 6 and 4 BC, but there have been other dates suggested. Some go as far back as 7 BC, some as late as 6 AD. The main reason for placing Jesus' birth before 4 BC is that Herod the Great is mentioned as being in power when Jesus was born, and Herod died in 4 BC. So there you go.

[mechana2015]

A little note to add onto the reason for the uncertainty regarding the year of birth for Jesus, is that our current dating system for years (based on the birth of christ) was estimated at the earliest in the 6th century, so exact numbers were hardly available at that time.

[J.D3]

Actually that's not true. There was no year 0. The calendar went from 1 BC directly to 1 AD. That's why the millennium started on 2001 instead of 2000.

Also, in addition to there being no year 0, most people place the date of Jesus' birth between 6 and 4 BC, but there have been other dates suggested. Some go as far back as 7 BC, some as late as 6 AD. The main reason for placing Jesus' birth before 4 BC is that Herod the Great is mentioned as being in power when Jesus was born, and Herod died in 4 BC. So there you go.

Sweet! When I wrote "0 BC" I was actually kind of thinking "Gee, that sounds a bit crude..." but I had forgotten about the whole dating thing with His birth & 1 BC/AD 1 with that so thanks heaps!

You might already know this anyway as it's kinda old news, but it's also interesting to note that Jesus' actually birth date isn't 100% pinned down (last I heard), and might actually be sometime in January.
I personally don't mind it being on the 25th though, kind of a nice wrap-up for the year!

[Peanut]

Also that isn't to say someone who has to pull away from the church to heal should NEVER go back, but taking a leave for a while (while keeping oneself surrounded with Christian influences and staying in the Word) isn't a bad thing.

Definitely, I have no problem with a retreat of sorts from church. Where I have an issue (in general) is when the retreat lasts a long time without the individual actively looking to be a part of a church. Jacobsen's case is a little more complex, I'll admit, since he does have a church of sorts which he is connected to. He proves the idea that an individual who isn't attending a church can be connected to the body of Christ more then someone who goes every Sunday. It still kind of sounds to me like he isn't actively searching but admittedly this is based on reading one article of his and not actually knowing him. So, I really wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the case.

Have you ever tried to right a wrong in a large evangelical church or suggest a major change in attitude? It's practically impossible. At best you'll get a meeting where nothing happens and they tell you they'll pray about it, and at worst, no response at all, or being called out in front of the church.

If someone keeps getting stabbed in the hand with a fork at the dinner table, they're going to stop sitting next to the person that does it. I don't understand how people consistently fail to realize how spiritual or psychological pain can be just as bad as physical pain.

But isn't this true with just about any major wrong within any society or structure? It's tough to change things, I know, but I still don't think running away for a long time is the right answer. A short time yes, that's fine and I even hinted at that in my post. But when you make it a point to pull away and plan to do so for the foreseeable future, then I'm going to have a problem. Also, any big change can be accomplished with smaller changes within people (assuming you've changed yourself as well). If you can change the way a few people view church then that should be considered a major breakthrough and (if they and you continue to change people's views) can lead to a major change within the system (though there are other ways for a major change to occur). Wayne Jacobsen is trying to do this, and that's part of the reason why I like his main point within this article. My issue is that I think he has limited who he can influence by completely pulling away. The churchgoer who believes that every person who isn't consistently attending a church has fallen into sin isn't going to listen to what he has to say at all. He's kind of lost his right to speak to them (in their eyes) and he even seems to kind of recognize that in the article.

[ShiroiHikari]

If someone keeps getting stabbed in the hand with a fork at the dinner table, they're going to stop sitting next to the person that does it. I don't understand how people consistently fail to realize how spiritual or psychological pain can be just as bad as physical pain.

Exactly.

Church is stressful for me because I don't fit in with the demographic of "church people", which, in my area, is middle to upper class ultra-conservative white people who probably have at least one child. About the only thing I have in common with that is being white and a little bit politically conservative.

I swear; I watch "objectionable" entertainment; I hold views that many "church people" would consider un-Christian. I don't have children yet so I don't want to sit around and talk about boring crap like what my kid did at the breakfast table that morning, but I can't talk about my nerdy interests like anime or video games because I'd be met with blank stares or possibly even open rebuke.

I do like a good sermon on occasion, but I, like others here, cannot stand being condemned from the pulpit over something that probably doesn't matter anyway, and I don't like being told what to think.

Lastly, I HATE most of these modern songs that sound like they want Jesus to be their girlfriend or whatever. They're not musically pleasing to me and they creep me out and they distract me rather than get me in a "worship" mood.

Church is not really all that uplifting or edifying for me at this point in time so I don't go often.

[Midori]

Have you tried visiting an Orthodox church, Shiroi? Based on my experience at two different Orthodox churches, they are relatively apolitical and their worship style is more serious. The only real problem is you have to stand up during the whole service.

[mechana2015]

My issue is that I think he has limited who he can influence by completely pulling away. The churchgoer who believes that every person who isn't consistently attending a church has fallen into sin isn't going to listen to what he has to say at all. He's kind of lost his right to speak to them (in their eyes) and he even seems to kind of recognize that in the article.

In most cases, the churchgoer that believes that every person who isn't consistently attending a church has fallen into sin isn't going to listen to what he has to say at all anyways, since that is usually one of a litany of other rules centered around making everyone look, talk, think, and act the same. If you don't follow ALL of them you'll have no chance of influencing anyone, since you're 'out of the will of God', and if you do, there will be no room to try to push change since the way the places are structured are usually against any change of procedure unless it's put in place directly by the pastor.

For reference, I personally hopped churches for years with periods of refusal to attend when I didn't have transportation, time or energy to go looking for a new one. I'm currently at a mainline church, and would prefer to stay that way if I can help it, but I had the advantage of living in an area with a church on nearly every corner in a metropolis. People in more rural areas will not have the choice that I had, and I can see eventually pulling away entirely as a valid choice if there isn't a church that they can exist in within an acceptable distance.

[Hiryu]

I'd like to think church as a place to worship God, fellowship with other believers, and teaching the word to people.

I do like a good sermon on occasion, but I, like others here, cannot stand being condemned from the pulpit over something that probably doesn't matter anyway, and I don't like being told what to think.

Not many people enjoy being told what to think, but I imagine there's a bit of truth in there, if it's not exaggerated. Like for instance, the people who think Harry Potter is the devil make me laugh, because they have no idea what they're talking about. I mean, sure, if you practice the magic you'll be thrown into hell, but Harry Potter doesn't teach you how to worship satan or cast magic.

Lastly, I HATE most of these modern songs that sound like they want Jesus to be their girlfriend or whatever. They're not musically pleasing to me and they creep me out and they distract me rather than get me in a "worship" mood.

But, but, don't you love Jesus?

Yea, I know it sounds strange to me too when they sing like that.

What I dislike is the singing and worship. I don't care for the songs that the choir sings or that a person has chosen to sing. I find them boring and uninteresting. Likewise, I don't enjoy singing and the words to most songs sung in churches these days are lame and poorly written.

I feel the same way. I don't really care much for the gospel or contemporary. I mean, they're nice to hear, sometimes I even enjoy a song if someone sings it well. Otherwise, give me japanese anyday.

[MxCake]

Hey guys im here just to throw my 2 cents in XD.I think finding a good church that doesn't get in the way of your relationship with Jesus is as hard as trying to find a job.But i've definitely found a church that is amazingly accepting and Bible driven only and nothing else. not all churches are bad but i know that a lot of them are and i can honestly say that in my opinion there's probably on a few good churches where i am.you just have to find one that has the people that you can relate to.

[ShiroiHikari]

Your church/job analogy is a good one. For the time being I have given up on finding both. :I