Cultic Tolerance...?

[Michael]

<Interesting question: do you think we, as Christians, should tolerate the structuring of mosques, and additional false houses of worship in America? (Hypothetically speaking.)>

No.

<What would it say about Christianity if the only way we could only spread worship was through force?>

Jihad was invented by Muslims, not Christians.

<If you attempt to force someone out of your country just because they believe differently than you, that is the worst possible Christian witness you could give IMHO.>

Actually, It would be a good one. Jesus himself chased pagans out of church with a whip.

[Icarus]

<If you attempt to force someone out of your country just because they believe differently than you, that is the worst possible Christian witness you could give IMHO.>

Actually, It would be a good one. Jesus himself chased pagans out of church with a whip.

I shouldn't join this as all I had to say has been said by others, but allow me to correct this.

Jesus chased them out, not because they were pagans (which I don't recall being mentioned in the passage), but because they were doing business in the temple, changing money and selling animals and so on.

[Michael]

<Jesus chased them out, not because they were pagans (which I don't recall being mentioned in the passage), but because they were doing business in the temple, changing money and selling animals and so on.>

Same thing. My point still stands.

[Azier the Swordsman]

Jesus was righteously upset because the temple was a place that was supposed to be 'holy' and 'reverent', but people were turning it into a marketplace and disrespecting the house of God. "My father's house is a place of worship, but you have turned it into a den of thieves."

There is NEVER any place in the New Testament Jesus showed hostility towards unbelievers just because of their personal beliefs. Rather, there are times recorded in the bible where Jesus hung out with unbelievers, and ministered to them. The Pharisees were very upset that Jesus showed compassion toward 'sinners'.

[Twilly Spree]

Unfortunately you cannot force Christianity on anyone. Also you say ban houses of "false worship." People's opinion of false worship differs. To some people Catholicism is a false worship. Just a thought is all.

[Straylight]

I am trying stay within the boundaries of CAA discussion here, but I would urge the consideration of effective witnessing.

Using Islam as an example, what is more likely to bring a Muslim to Christ?
Proclaiming the Gospel to them or throwing them out of your country and tearing down their place of worship?

Think about it.

[madphilb]

I'm guilty of skimming this thread, 4 pages and I've had a long day, but I think I've got the overall tone of the original thing (I'm not going to get into the political/theological thing).

The typical attitude I see from many believers is to remove any competition rather than being better than it.

TV Shows, Books, Movies, Music, and other sorts of entertainment are all often attacked by believers for their lack of morality, etc., etc., etc. Rather than do better than the world at these things, we want to remove those things which have caught the worlds eye, and more importantly, shows how poorly we've done the same thing.

As an example, we want to pull books like Harry Potter (used as a modern example) out of schools and libraries due to various reasons.... why? Because the last great books authored that hold both believer and non-believer's attention are from Lewis and Tolkien years and years ago.

Christian Churches in general have failed (for various reasons) to be relevant to people's lives and show who God is and why He's a better choice to follow.

Because we've been petty, mean, close-minded, judgemental, and arrogant (and that's just to each other, not to mention the world) they don't see us as anything but.

I agree with Straylight on how we present things is important. It's been my longstanding opinion that the "burn or turn" attitude is the wrong one. Churches that are only out to sell Fire Insurance to people's souls, and build numbers and those "ooo, look at our salvation numbers this week" are doomed to never make a real effect in our neighborhoods.

I stand as a believer today because a goofy kid in High School spent the time to be my friend and live out his faith in front of my, not by shoving it down my throat, but by simply just living as a believer.

Untill people start to understand that even if Hell where paradise, God would still be the better choice, we're not going to see people come and grow.

We offer Jesus as a fix for their low times in their life, but He only get's used as a crutch and is left aside and forgotten when things are good.

I finished the Narnia books yesterday. What strikes me is that they where always glad to see Aslan, even when things where good. WE need to be like that, show that in our lives, and then help others to see that in their own lives.

Anything else will have nothing to last.

I believe that this attitude is part of the good soil in Mt 4:8 & 20 (thouh there is a ballance to that people also learn to call on God when "the chips are down" as well).

[Michael]

Don't get me wrong, it's impossible to ban Islam. My point was that we should have no tolerance for pagans in our culture. Realistically, we'll never be rid of them until Christ comes in judgement. I don't think we should go around lighting Mosque's on fire, but we should ardently strive to proclaim the sin they are in.

[Straylight]

Don't get me wrong, it's impossible to ban Islam. My point was that we should have no tolerance for pagans in our culture. Realistically, we'll never be rid of them until Christ comes in judgement. I don't think we should go around lighting Mosque's on fire, but we should ardently strive to proclaim the sin they are in.

I would add to this and say that the proclamation should really not be made at Muslims (following the example) unless it is integrated into a delivery of the Gospel. Delivering the Gospel includes living it out, as madphil has stated on the previous page. We all fail in this area, so it's best to avoid being hasty in raining judgement on other people's beliefs. IMO.

Yelling stuff like "Your religion is sinful and will end you up in hell!!1111" is probably not the most tactful nor the most effective way of witnessing.

edits to add: FYI, I'm planning to close this thread pretty soon, as we're reaching the repetitive stage now.

[EireWolf]

... there was a physical "God's Land" back then, wheras the Kingdom of Heaven is the salvation of man, not a physical location. Therefore, keeping the land pure (tearing down of idols in the theocracy of Israel) is not the same as if we were to tear down the mosques. The idols and temples we need to tear down are the ones in our own selves because the church is people and not a building, and the kingdom is the salvation of man and not a physical place.

Thank you Bob]Interesting question: do you think we, as Christians, should tolerate the structuring of mosques, and additional false houses of worship in America?[/quote]

Lluvia, you seem to be assuming that America is owned by, or even populated by a majority of Christians. But even if it were... The Kingdom of God is not (yet) a physical place on Earth. That will come, in God's time. But it is not for us to try to institute... we are human, and we would screw it up royally... again. (As many have mentioned already, this has been tried before and miserably failed.)

The Kingdom of God is in our hearts. As Bob said, we are to tear down our own idols and attitudes of false worship, and not judge other people. Leave that to God.

[Ammaranth]

This has obviously turned into a very touchy issue, and I am hesitant to wade out into the waters here, but it seems like so many people are making good points, and really do have something to say, so I will try to add what I can. First off, thank you to the mods for allowing this discussion to continue, even though it does bend the rules on CAA's no debate policy. I respect that policy; I have been on forums before where the entire board gets taken over in a kind of war, and just derails everything else from going on. But at the same time, when someone does bring up this kind of thing, I really don't think that the best answer is to just shut the discussion down out of fear of what it might bring. I don't think that would really be in the best interests of anyone. Maybe there could be a sort of "Volatile Threads" area, not to invite debate, but just to have a place to transfer these kinds of subjects to when they come up, as it seems they always do. That way, no one would have to stumble into one of these kinds of discussions unless they knew what they were getting into. Just a thought; I'll leave that to the mods, of course.

As far as tolerance goes, I think there is a problem with confusing the idea of tolerance and acceptance. God hates sin, not sinners. We ought to love all people, of all creeds/backgrounds/lifestyles/whatever. That does not mean that we have to accept what they do as right. We do not have to endorse or condone things that are unChristian. But we should not hate or persecute the people that do them.

I can understand the resentment on the part of many Christians at the filth that this world is trying to push on us. There is such a thing as righteous indignation, and contrary to what some have been saying, there was a LOT of Christian sentiment surrounding the founding of America. We should not surrender this country to a secular humanist whitewash or its revisionist history. But accepting that we are in a culture war, not only in this country, but the entire world, how best to prosecute it? I think MadPhilb was on the right track. If we don't like the evil in our country, lets make something good to give people as an alternative. If you open a restaurant on main street, and there are fifty other restaurants already there, you don't get ahead by trying to shut them all down -- you set out to have the best food in town, better ambiance, all of that. Pretty soon, some of those other places start to go out of business. That's the kind of strategy I think we need. This is not a worldly struggle. This is a spiritual thing. We must not lose sight of what the nature of our battle really is.

Ammaranth

[Straylight]

Good call!

Maybe there could be a sort of "Volatile Threads" area, not to invite debate, but just to have a place to transfer these kinds of subjects to when they come up, as it seems they always do. That way, no one would have to stumble into one of these kinds of discussions unless they knew what they were getting into. Just a thought; I'll leave that to the mods, of course.

This kind of thing has been asked many times before and I'm afraid that it just aint going to happen. Even if the intent behind it was good, I'm afraid that speaking as someone who's been here for a while, it would invite debate. Sorry

Anyway, I think this has gone on long enough now and the topics have been well covered. I'm PMing Lluvia to see if she wants to make a closing post (which I will edit into my post here), however this thread is now pretty much locked for further discussion.

edit: This is what Lluvia would like to say to close the thread:

Everyone entirely missed the point I was attempting to shed light on for the sake of the thread's subject, and befell on a warpath. The objective for the topic was to provoke thought and deliberation, not to compose everyone to develop an abrupt intimidating and condescending mindset, and to cause a colossal theological debate! *Sigh.* -.- My point to make was that although it would have been right in the eyes of the Lord to have never allowed temples to be built for false religions and/or cults, but rather than remain quiet and passive as regards to this, and having we now must live in the midst of them, it is our obligation as Christians to christen false, false, and evil, evil. To not utter a thing for the sake of peace and tolerance would be as if to refute our own faith!
- Lluvia