Guns?

[Stephen]

"To me, a weapon isn't a magical symbol of self-defense, it is a sign of desperation, fear, and paranoia taking over someone's life."

No, launching a crusade to take guns away from everyone is a sign of fear and paranoia.

[MillyFan]

^sigh^ An article from WorldNutDaily, especially an interview with a book author who is obviously promoting the pro-gun line, doesn't hold much weight with me.

[Technomancer]

Here's an article from WorldNetDaily. This fellow ought to have the credentials to know what he's talking about it since he's studied crime for many years.

The question is, is the relationship causal or casual? Crime rates have dropped everywhere in North America irrespective of the legal regime in place. In Canada for example, where we have had a progressive tightening of gun laws, there has been a steady decline in the homicide rate in general from a peak in ~1976. The decline in actual shootings themselves has been much more pronounced.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/031001/d031001a.htm

[Shinja]

well are you looking at crime rates, or crimes involeing guns, while the rate my decrese of overall crime, gun related crimes my have risen or fallen, lso in that time some states have passed conciled carry laws, to make an accurate look at it you have to look at numerous factors across the whole spectum. much like the book at question trys to do.

[MillyFan]

Good link Technomancer

[ShiroiHikari]

All I'm gonna say is, I better not find an anti-gun enthusiast who's into swords or bows as recreation.

Edit: BTW, I thought this thread was supposed to be about what makes guns cool, not a debate over them.

[Technomancer]

well are you looking at crime rates, or crimes involeing guns, while the rate my decrese of overall crime, gun related crimes my have risen or fallen, lso in that time some states have passed conciled carry laws, to make an accurate look at it you have to look at numerous factors across the whole spectum. much like the book at question trys to do.

And many states haven't; of course up here carrying a concealed weapon is highly illegal in all but a handful of exceptional cases.

[Icarus]

25 ft. pole and a radiation suit, and I'm still not touching that debate.

[Technomancer]

Don't get me wrong; I have no interest in banning firearms (or bows, which in any event are treated similar to rifles under the law) . As I've said, there are legitimate reasons for owning such things. I learned how to handle guns as a boyscout, and have always felt that the experience was beneficial. However, I don't consider gun ownership to be an absoute right, nor do I think that any sort of gun should be purchasable- some types should be strictly controlled.

[Ashley]

You know, I love the fact some of the members here respect everyone else enough that they actually READ the first post and keep their traps shut instead of jumping on a thread they know they feel strongly against and stirring up trouble. Makes my job a breeze.

This thread was made, and I quote, for people who like guns to explain why. Not so anti-gun people can rant and rave and comment and what have you. All that does is stir up trouble. And you know, this problem goes beyond just this thread---I do not understand why people have to be so rude about a topic. If you don't like it, no one's forcing you to post your opinion on it. Just ignore it and go on. Stay involved in those threads only you like. But instead, we have people like Millyfan (no, this is not directed at you, but you're a prominient example for the moment) here come in and rant and rave more than once. Once I could forgive--ok, you stated your opinion even though technically the first post was asking people like you to quietly step out of the discussion. But no, again and again people bring up their anti-whatever-the-topic-is-at-the-moment (in this case, the "anti-gun people") and make snide comments over and over (like, in this case, the one about "world nut news" or whatever). All that does is cause debate and make otherwise enjoyable and respectable threads like this get closed. Read this thread from page one---for a while the discussion was mature and respectable, and then the anti-gun people started showing up and ruining things. Pretty immature, if you ask me.

Point being: unless you can state your opinion nicely, especially if you are opposing it, don't post. I am not going to close this thread yet because I think the original posters on here were having a great time. But don't let it get ugly again. To "YesIExist" and the other people who liked this thread, I'm sorry we have some pretty immature people around here.

[WeeL]

...


The most gun saturated nation in the world (switzerland I believe) has fewer problems with them than the US does... I don't know how to interpret that, but it is worth a thought.

I dont know if anyone mentioned this or not, but (this is what I've heard, check on it yourselves if you feel like it) Switzerland only lets citizens own a gun if they have been in the Swiss army. (dont quote me on that)

[shooraijin]

WeeL, please see Ashley's statement above.

[ShiroiHikari]

...can we get back to the original topic now?

[WeeL]

Uh... right. Leaving.

[Michael]

Note: This's all IMHO

[size='15']Lecture:[/size]

Haha! I'm anti-gun. I'm anti-gun because I don't like guns. I like firearms. You never call it a gun. I own a paintball gun. That's a gun, but not a firearm.

[Technomancer]

My apologies for sidetracking things.

Anyways, one of the things that I do find interesting is their role in history, and in the history of technological development.

[madphilb]

I used to work the midnight shift at 7-11 years ago. We had all the local police in there over the course of the night, we where one of the few places open in the area (inside esp.) and we'd encourage them to stop by (made it safer for us too).

I took notice one day to the guns... man, how cool are they? It made me understand the apeal to kids who find thier parents guns hidden in the bottom drawer of a dresser or in the back of a closet.

BTW, I do like Straylight's thoughts on regional stuff re: gun control.... frankly I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't work properly... that, as someone else pointed out, many of the worst cases of crimes commited where by those who didn't buy them using the systems in place in this country now (speaking of the US).

Oh, as for the judge dredd thing... I was watching something over at my Mom's a while ago (dont' remember if it was something her boyfriend had on... might have been), but I guess one of the guns that they're developing (I think for police use) has a sensor in the hand-grip that looks for a chip in a ring the police would wear and the gun would not fire without it... I think this was a non-mechanical gun (electronically fired rounds as I recall, no "hammer" to fire them).

Interesting thread if it keeps civil

[Haibane Shadsie]

Yeah, keeping this thread civil is nice.

I guess I'm an "on the fence" person, as stated before. In general, I think guns are one of mankind's worst inventions, yet, we have them now, like it or not. I respect the people who are responsible with them (hunters, target shooters, responsible cops and military personell).

I rather agree with MillyFan on the killing in self-defence... not that I think it's really all that wrong. I think if you need to to protect innocent lives... if there is no other choice... but... if you have a heart, you are going to FEEL HORRIBLY GUILTY about it, and hash over and over in your mind the rest of your life whether or not you did the right thing. For some people, having a gun in the house for self-protection might be a good thing... for others, it's not at all... As I said, with my personal and family situations, having a gun in the house would INCREASE my likelyhood of being injured or killed rather than DECREASE it. That is my particular case/living situation. It doesn't apply to everyone, and not even to most people.

I'm not for the total banning of guns... but I do think certain models are just... ridiculous for civilians to own. Gun ownership in general, though, shouldn't be banned, as there are responsible people, and moreso for the fact that said responsible people will follow the law and care about going through legal channels, where as the people who intend to use them for violent crime will not. There are things already like this...

Not to go off on a tangent, but "medical marijuana"... putting aside what you think of mary jane's medicinal properties, it seems like people who want it for legitimate relief of pain (such as cancer paitients and whatnot), cannot get it or have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get it... and they want it for a supposedly legitmate purpose. They are honest people. However, if you are a dishonest person who just wants to buy it to get high... it's more than easy to get, if you have the money. I think that if guns, as a whole, were banned - the people who want them for sporting or self-protection purposes will be honest and not be able to get them... while the criminals out there will have their black market means to get them.


So, you know, where do I stand? I'm not sure. I'm not a big fan of guns, but they are with us and we have to deal with them somehow.

Anybody watch the History Channel series "Tales of the Gun"? It consists of several one-hour episodes about different guns... from the Winchester company to naval cannons, guns in history as they've been used in war, crime, and honest civillian life. It's an interesting series to watch for historical perspective on firearms.


As for hunting and my attitudes about killing one's own meat... Eh, I've never killed a cow or a deer, and have no desire to do the deed myself, but I UNDERSTAND where meat comes from. As I said, I fish... catch a trout, look it in the eye, fully intending to eat the thing. I grew up rural, and my dad, for most of his life (he's retired now) was a retail butcher. As a young child, my family used to raise chickens and pigs. I'm rather angry that my parents let me, as a little child, name the pig and treat it as a pet... then there were our rabbits, and our goat, but I won't get into that...

But, yeah, I grew up around "meat doesn't just appear"... it grows on living animals that one has to kill and butcher. I like the honesty of not denying that. Furthermore... growing up in the country, I saw wild creatures doing what comes naturally... and saw, on many occasions, my cats eating mice and things... (Heh... I used to try to save mice from my cats as a kid. Drove my mom crazy, she was always afraid I'd get a disease from it).

My uncles... hunt. Sometimes, I get to partake of the spoils of the hunt in a good elk-steak. I respect hunting, and I think it is important for children to be raised with an understanding of where meat comes from, not this consumer culture of "you don't need to tell them that their happy meal hamburger comes from a cow." Gah. It seems to be a reccurent theme in my writing... I often will have a scene of hunting/and or butchering something.

What really annoys me (getting off on a tangent) are people who claim that they love animals without making any attempt to really understand them. You know.. like people who say that we shouldn't employ rescue dogs to help authorities find people trapped in rubble because "the dog is risking it's life for the benifit of man without even being asked/having a choice". GAAAAAAAH! If you know dogs that are well-cared for... if they could talk, I bet they would ALL say "Yes! I will help!" People who might think riding horses is cruel because a person is on a horse's back... I know horses... horses BOND with their human companions - and much of the time actually LIKE their "masters" to ride them, to take them out, see scenes, be with them - even on their backs...

Okay, I'll shut up, I'm getting off topic.

[Stephen]

One thing that most anti-gun people do not take into consideration...do you realise how many people would lose jobs if guns were banned? Thousands and thousands...in areas like Maine where Hunting and guiding are a huge part of business your talking many many familys. But I guess as long as we all feel safe. As far as killing a person...I hope I am never in that posistion....I mean that...ending someones life is not somthing funny...and not "cool" However...If someone broke into my house...and I knew they were armed...I would protect my family...by any means necessary. Would I regret killing someone...yes I probably would...I would never forget it...but I would rather live with the burdon of taking a life...then burrying my parents (or later on if I get married my wife). As I said though...what gives people a bad name is acting like gung ho gunners or some crap. As I said...guns when not respected are dangerous....but like anything in life...with respect are fine.

[EireWolf]

What I am interested in, is what makes guns so appealing? Why might someone choose to target shoot or hunt animals as compared to another hobby?

Hmmm... what makes them appealing? Well, the one point where I disagreed with Cephas' original post is the point of holding the power of life and death in your hands. I actually don't care for that aspect of guns... but that is also why I learn how to use them. Paradoxical? Yes, but I will try to explain...

Did you know that the police have no duty to protect you? Yep, it's true. I mean, technically it's part of their job to protect you, but you can't sue them if they didn't get there in time, for example... and you can't sue them if you're dead. The cops can't always be there when you need protection. Sometimes you're on your own.

If someone breaks into my house, I will assume it's not for the purpose of tea and a chat. I would rather not be raped or murdered, thankyouverymuch... instead, please say hello to my pistol.

Of course I will feel bad if I kill someone, even if that person is a rapist or murderer. (Well... okay, yeah, I will probably still feel bad.) But I will feel much worse if I allow my parents to be deprived of their only remaining daughter (that would be me), or if I allow my husband to be killed when I could have done something about it.

Okay, so that's the morbid part about why firearms are cool.

Icarus mentioned another cool aspect about target shooting -- the challenge. It ain't easy to hit a small target from a distance! I'm actually a pretty good shot, with certain weapons. It's kinda' fun. But it is also sobering... NEVER mistake a firearm for a toy. I was taught from an early age to respect guns, and to be educated about them. My parents never hid their presence from me, but they taught me to respect them (and made sure that I couldn't fire them without supervision).

Basically, I think that guns are a necessary evil, too. They're here and they're not going away, no matter how many laws are enacted. So we law-abiding citizens better learn how to use them correctly. Of course, if you don't want to, that's your perogative. But please don't take away my right to defend myself.