The Christian School Syndrome

[EricTheFred]

[quote="Nate (post: 1378026)"]It's weird. I keep seeing statements like "The Christian school kids behaved poorly" or "The Christian school kids were well-behaved." I don't get it. Are we holding them to a higher standard than ourselves? Or to a higher standard than a Christian at a public school? People who attend a Christian school are just as human and sinful as us. It's just a bit nonsensical to me. I wouldn't expect a Christian school kid to be better behaved or anything just because the word "Christian" is in front of their school, it just doesn't seem right. They have no obligation to act any better than we do.

I would hope you realize that I don't actually hate them, which is more than I can say about how they feel about public schools, though I suppose school is a "place" or an "institution" rather than a person so it's okay to hate that (ignoring the fact that a school is made up of who is in it).

I dunno I guess I'm just a bit tired of it? Public schools exist and not everyone has the money or the free time to do private or homeschool, yet there's this tendency to look down on public schools as "evil godless institutions" full of horrible people. Likewise there's a tendency of public school people to look down on those private schoolers as rich snobs or dumb theists, or hey who hasn't heard the stereotype about how homeschoolers will never function in the real world because they never got social skills?

Neither group is right, it's all stereotypes. Public schools are fine, private schools are fine, I personally hate homeschooling passionately but if someone wants to do that then whatever, they can go for it. It's a free country. *shrug*

My comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek but it's pretty obvious that parents that send their kids to private school hate or distrust public schools, because there's zero reason to send kids to a private school otherwise. Homeschooling has a bit more to it than hating public school (sometimes public school isn't an option, if you live in small towns or sparsely populated areas) so I didn't think it would be right to mention them.

And that isn't the kid's fault their parents feel like that. So there's no need to treat those kids badly because of how their parents feel (even though that's how school usually works anyway]

I'm complimenting you and everyone else on how civil this has stayed, and how well we have kept within the lines despite the subject being right on the hairy edge of being out of bounds, but I want to insert a reminder before the hand of Mod smites us all.

When the discussion was about attitudes of the students, pro or con, I think we were okay, but we are drifting close o discussing the institutions and their representatives (teachers, administrators, etc.), which is a very different story, and one with a lot of strong feelings on all sides. No matter where individuals stand on the subject, it is almost certain to go out of bounds by CAA rules.

Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood curmudgeon.

[Shao Feng-Li]

I only went to a Christian school for one year and that was 2nd grade and got a far superior education compared to the public school next door. Though, my teacher was awesome in 2nd grade and my 3rd grade teacher in the public school was terrible. (Also, little did I realize that my 2nd grade teacher was Reformed. Looking back now makes me appreciate her even more.)

Campus was better too. In public school, I always kind of felt like an outcast. Most of the kids were rude and crude- why would I want to hang out with them? Though, this is mostly what my brain remembers. I was home-schooled for the majority of my education anyway and now have my GED.

[copper]

In retrospect, having thoroughly experienced the bad and the good offered all the way across the spectrum--public, Christian, and home schooling--I can only recall every pre-college educational program I was enslaved to as an exorbitant device to keep a relatively good and naive kid out of trouble. From the educational aspect, I never appreciated the abstruseness, and all of the "just because" and the "you are incapable of fathoming the why's and wherefores until you earn your Ph.D.," particularly in the area of mathematics. That aside.

I can't say my experience resembled that of OP. Now, this surely varies from Christian school to Christian school, but the Christian school I attended had a student body which was mixed enough to kill any possibility for a collective sense of elitism. I specifically recall a student or two whom I perceived to bear the image of Christ to a detectable extent among the less mentionables, as well as many last-chance cases who'd been sacked by the Flint public school system. Public school I can say the same of, minus the last-chance kids.

Never do I remember being judged because I had come from a public school--but definitely for other things. There will always be these sorts of struggles among kids, and whatever grounds they pick to judge one another on are moot. I do recall the elitist air among many of the kids I knew from homeschooling groups, but you can't really blame kids for parroting whatever they're being told by their parents.

You might not believe it if you knew me, but last year I did spend some time in a small, highly fundamentalist Baptist college. Sometimes I wonder how I managed to weasel my way in, as I am not really the "good boy" I once was. You might call me a "backslider" now, although less so then. Perhaps they perceived a dramatic transformation in me when I cut my ponytail back to a short tapered style, swapped my NLT for a 1611 KJV, or maybe they just got used to me hanging around the church. Is the 1611 KJV the only version for me? Yes, definitely. Should men wear pants and have short hair, while women wear skirts and have long hair? Probably, but it's not like I have a family for which I am responsible to lay down those standards; only myself. Is rock music innately of the devil? Are drums evil? I haven't the foggiest clue! Am I a fundamentalist? Only if you think a backslider can be a fundamentalist. In any case, whatever the reason, they matriculated me into their highly exclusive college. From a distance things look much different in Bible college, with all of the preacher boys in their suits and ties, and all of the innocent young women wearing strictly very long skirts. But the one thing I've learned is that people are people wherever you go. Socially, these students exhibited behaviour no different from any other group of humans I've seen. The women still gossip and backbite, and the men still peck at each other to become top chicken. And of course I use "men" and "women" loosely. A good number of those kids were still teenagers, or behaved like teenagers, were working their first jobs, and so forth. However, I will grant that I did meet at that college a higher concentration of men who I can respect as Godly men than I have met anywhere else. And by the way, I believe it goes without saying that aside from those Godly men I met, some people in that camp did ring those unmistakable elitist overtones.

The same can be said of universities as well. Having attended a major university, I can say that many students and professors alike have a tendency to look down upon other universities, other programs, students coming in from a junior college, and even students at a lower level in that same university. Some universities (i.e. Purdue) want nothing to do with students wanting to transfer in from Podunk Community College, regardless of mandates handed directly down to them by the State. Ironically, some of the only decent educational experiences I've had have been at community colleges--though also some of the worst--but never a good experience at the university.

[Technomancer]

From the educational aspect, I never appreciated the abstruseness, and all of the "just because" and the "you are incapable of fathoming the why's and wherefores until you earn your Ph.D.," particularly in the area of mathematics. That aside.

It can come off as obnoxious, but often it is also true. The kinds of analogies used by good popularizers are, in the end, only analogies, and don't really capture much of the detail really needed for higher-level work. Many people as well don't really have the talent for such explanations either: the only explanation they can easily give is the high-level one.

Some universities (i.e. Purdue) want nothing to do with students wanting to transfer in from Podunk Community College, regardless of mandates handed directly down to them by the State.

To be fair, given the broad spread of quality amongst colleges/university, that is only a reasonable position to take. They have to make sure that Podunk College has given you adequate preparation for their course-work, and that as a potential graduate of their own school, you will be able to represent them adequately.

[TGJesusfreak]

Being that I have been homeshooled my entire life I've never gottten quite as clear of a veiw of people from either school. But as Goldy said you find good and bad people in and out of christian schools. Heck one of my sisters' freinds went to a christians school and was blatently unchristian. But one could fall into the trap of feeling better then someone else as well just cause they go to a christian school. But as I have not met anyone of that description I will not judge.

[copper]

It can come off as obnoxious, but often it is also true. The kinds of analogies used by good popularizers are, in the end, only analogies, and don't really capture much of the detail really needed for higher-level work. Many people as well don't really have the talent for such explanations either: the only explanation they can easily give is the high-level one.

I disagree, I believe that it's rarely true and I've only heard them used as scapegoats and cop-outs. A problem mainly at pre-college levels, the instructor really only wants to avoid a lengthy explanation because the curriculum does not present material in a "sane" order. There's nothing terribly hard to understand about, say, mathematics, if you're building concept upon concept, and your student has some basic level of aptitude. Can't explain parts of trig without teaching calculus first? Then don't. It would make a great accelerated math program for the committed student, though not so much for the one with the deeply-rooted, seething contempt for the subject.

To be fair, given the broad spread of quality amongst colleges/university, that is only a reasonable position to take. They have to make sure that Podunk College has given you adequate preparation for their course-work, and that as a potential graduate of their own school, you will be able to represent them adequately.

Not when these same universities (i.e. Purdue) are forever matriculating asian transfer students by the boatload. Moreover, Indiana has a singular public community college throughout the entire state, called Ivy Tech, with whom, historically, Purdue has been less than cooperative in the matter of developing transferrable programs and reliable transfer guidelines, despite mandates handed down by the State to this exclusive red-brick institution. Purdue is riddled with these sorts of political complexities.

When I first applied for Purdue, I already had three years of 4.0 performance at several colleges including Ivy Tech. After eating my $50 application fee or whatever it was, they didn't even bother to send me a rejection notice. I had to walk into the counseling office and badger them as to why I hadn't heard anything. It turns out I was only rejected because one of my calc credits didn't transfer from Ivy. The counselor was rather rude with me, and would not even take me to his office to talk. He said I must pay a new $50 application fee for the right to see a counselor, plus another $25 fee to actually make an appointment with the counselor. They were not particularly busy at the time I went in. That is all somewhat aside, but still true. Interestingly, at the time I attended Purdue, the requirements for freshmen entering directly from high school were remarkably modest - a 2.0 GPA, and some minimum math, English and science requirements. Why so difficult to transfer from other colleges? Well, if you can be discouraged from picking a money-saving "2+2" program, then... well, I've also been told that I'm a mistrusting cynic, so you draw your own conclusions! Did I mention that some of the dumbest guys I worked with in that town were Purdue alums? Engineers, mind you--asian and american alike.

[Technomancer]

Can't explain parts of trig without teaching calculus first? Then don't. It would make a great accelerated math program for the committed student, though not so much for the one with the deeply-rooted, seething contempt for the subject.

Okay, you seem to have had some bad teachers (or schools). Aside from Taylor series expansions, I'm having trouble thinking what parts of trig really require calculus to understand. Most uses that I can immediately think of can be, and were proven geometrically in the classes that I took (once upon a time).

Moreover, Indiana has a singular public community college throughout the entire state, called Ivy Tech, with whom, historically, Purdue has been less than cooperative in the matter of developing transferrable programs and reliable transfer guidelines, despite mandates handed down by the State to this exclusive red-brick institution. Purdue is riddled with these sorts of political complexities.

All right. The lack of transferrable programs is understandable, but their guidelines should be clearly stated wherever possible. I'm actually suprised they don't have a placement exam for these sorts of cases.

[copper]

Okay, you seem to have had some bad teachers (or schools).

Yes, well, as someone who's attended school, I've had my share of them.

Aside from Taylor series expansions, I'm having trouble thinking what parts of trig really require calculus to understand. Most uses that I can immediately think of can be, and were proven geometrically in the classes that I took (once upon a time).

You and me both--actually I was recalling a "practical" trig course which was an engineering requirement at Purdue. The pythagorean identities were described as being derived from advanced calculus formulas which were beyond the scope of the course, and left at just that. Yes, really!

Legitimate or not, it was also a favored explanation of diverse mathematical and scientific things throughout highschool as I recall it, though I could no longer tell you anything specific. Oh, I imagine it could have been easily invoked during discussions of topics such as the anatomy of a parabola, and so forth.

All right. The lack of transferrable programs is understandable, but their guidelines should be clearly stated wherever possible. I'm actually suprised they don't have a placement exam for these sorts of cases.

Having attended Purdue, the lack of transferrable programs is understandable to me only as either greed or unwarranted exclusivity.

A placement exam was never offered to me, but having been a townie there for a few years and making a few connections, in a roundabout way I eventually managed to weasel my way in with some of my credits. In the end I did have to take Purdue's freshman calculus, and it was vastly unremarkable as can be expected of any calc1 course anywhere. There was nothing exceptional about it that it shoudn't have been transferred from Ivy, Podunk, or just about anywhere else.

[Technomancer]

You and me both--actually I was recalling a "practical" trig course which was an engineering requirement at Purdue. The pythagorean identities were described as being derived from advanced calculus formulas which were beyond the scope of the course, and left at just that. Yes, really!

Great, and those ones are pretty trivial.

[shooraijin]

I'm with Techno -- that's just bad and/or lazy teaching. My high school teacher taught us trig with all proofs entirely by geometry; I didn't even start pre-calc until the following year. That kind of thing is a shame, really.

(Disclaimer: product of the Lutheran school system)

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Not when these same universities (i.e. Purdue) are forever matriculating asian transfer students by the boatload

Hang on. First, is this based off statistics, or just someone's empirical observation? Secondly, what are the demographics of the OTHER students which are accepted? Sure you may have a large influx of Asian students in a university, but I would imagine they're still far the minority.

Oh and inb4 "Asians are smarter".

[shooraijin]

Sorry, I missed that statement in copper's original post. Let's not take the thread that way; I should have said something earlier.

[rangerchris]

i am in a private school now and the public school they were more violent but the private school everyone thinks there smarter when i make straight b's unlike some who make straight f's oh and what christian school do you go to

[Nikolai Melodie]

Hmm... well, see, I think what you need to realize is that kids are kids. I went to about eleven schools throughout my K-12 schooling; several private, private-Catholic, and public schools. No matter where I went, there was always quite a bit of ridicule. On my part, it was because I, admittedly, am as nerdy as the day is long. However, my older brother did have some issues at his first Catholic school. He's significantly older than me, and went to Catholic high school, which I never did. Because of our parent's divorce, they would make fun of him and tell him he wasn't, 'legitimate,' in the eyes of God any longer. And, well, I think we can all say that...that's crap.

That being said, in public schools, I faced my own issues. Just recently, a boy at my former high school beat another student so badly he's in UofM right now with a shattered pelvis, awaiting several surgeries. The year before that, a young man murdered an older man he barely knew, simply because he felt like it.

What I'm trying to get at here is that you can't really blame the school for the fact that during your standard, K-12 American education (I'm assuming that you're in the US), when you see these same people every day, for eight hours of the day, and you also happen to be going through some distinct, terrible physical/mental changes, things are going to go absolutely bonkers for some people.

If it's any consolation, college is so much better.