Talking to a Christian who has strayed

[Sheenar]

Hey guys,
I'm a bit confused. And sad. I have several friends (both from back in high school and from college) who once were practicing Christians, but now have fallen away and are living like the world--they put up pictures on Facebook/Myspace of themselves partying it up, drinking beer--they write with strong language. I've even had one friend say to me that she's not sure God exists anymore--and she is a Christian.
When I tried to confront a friend and encourage him to pursue what is eternal instead of temporary pleasure/happiness: "Nothing is eternal. Everything is fleeting. We simply have this one life to live and it is short. Beyond that, sadly, lies nothing. Nothing waits for us after death, nothing will be there to greet us save perpetual unconsciousness. So while alive I plan to live to my utmost potential and have a lot of fun in the process at no one else's expense. And if anyone wants to judge me in the mean time, .... em."
It just saddens me so much to see people that I once went to church with, worshiped with, go to Bible studies with, hung out with, etc. go down the paths that they have. It's like they've turned their backs on God. I know many of them have been hurt very, very badly...but so have I and I (though I do go my own way many times) haven't given up on believing that God has a plan somehow.
How should I respond to these friends? I love them so much. I don't want them to miss what God wants to do with their lives.

[ChristianKitsune]

This same thing happened to me a few months ago... A guy who I was great friends in high school who was an amazing Christian suddenly told me that he just doesn't believe in the God he grew up knowing.

This struck me VERY hard... :/ and it was really wierd, because for a while, It was hard to breath after he told me that...my heart was literally breaking for him, and for others who have fallen away...

but my dad told me something that made a lot of sense...

In between the time someone graduates high school and the age of the 25 or so church attendance falls dramatically. Now, I know going to church doesn't make anyone a Christian or not, but it does show something...

I think that a lot of young Christians fall away, and then come back to God after they have had enough of living life "their way." It's horrible, and very sad to see our friends suffer so much...

But preaching to them won't help anything... seriously, you can talk to people until they are blue in the face about God...but a lot of times people will tune us out. :/

All we can do is love them, and pray for them...and pray for ourselves that God will give us the words to say, when HE wants us to say it...if we act on our own...it just won't work.

We just need to keep praying for our friends and loved ones...

and not to start a debate or anything... but I am really curious... I've been taught "once saved always saved." (I know that there is a huge disagreement among denominations here... about that. ) but does someone denouncing Christ...mean that they lose their salvation? Can one just tell God, "I'm sorry, I want to return this Gift?"

It's something I've always wondered...but I've never been too sure about.. ^^;

(I'm not looking to start debate, because I'm worried about a lot of my friends too...)

[Sheenar]

No, if you could lose your salvation, then that would mean that Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient. It's like saying "Christ's blood covers and does away with your sins, but not that sin." (the sin of denouncing Christ). No, I believe that once you're a child of God, you are always a child of God, even if you go out and live like heck like the rest of the world does. (No, God's grace isn't a license to sin, but some Christians do live like they have that view.)

[ChristianKitsune]

No, if you could lose your salvation, then that would mean that Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient. It's like saying "Christ's blood covers and does away with your sins, but not that sin." (the sin of denouncing Christ). No, I believe that once you're a child of God, you are always a child of God, even if you go out and live like heck like the rest of the world does. (No, God's grace isn't a license to sin, but some Christians do live like they have that view.)

yeah that's what I've always thought XD.

[minakichan]

I think the argument a lot of people give is that if they called themselves Christians at one point and then denounced Christ, they weren't real Christians to begin with. I kind of think this is hogwash and it sounds like an excuse, but whatever, I don't know >_>;

[Warrior4Christ]

This has happened to me before, and it really shocks/saddens me.
What Kitchan said was good though.

[quote="ChristianKitsune (post: 1219149)"]and not to start a debate or anything... but I am really curious... I've been taught "once saved always saved." (I know that there is a huge disagreement among denominations here... about that. ) but does someone denouncing Christ...mean that they lose their salvation? Can one just tell God, "I'm sorry, I want to return this Gift?"

It's something I've always wondered...but I've never been too sure about.. ^^]
It's God who does the judging, but... I tend to disagree with that.

[termyt]

The early 20's were the roughest part of my life to date. My faith and my understanding of the very nature of God's being were strongly challenged. It was a time of great darkness. No one brought me up out of this darkness, I figured it out on my own through the grace and wisdom of the Almighty God. It's not that people didn't care or weren't interested in me. It's more that I had to re-evaluate the world I thought I knew. No one could do that for me.

That's the greatest shock to an 18 year old. Life outside of K-12 is nothing like life inside. Teenagers are constantly warned of this - some believe the warnings, some do not - but very few are prepared for just how big the change is.

Not even 200 years ago, adult life began in the early/mid teens. Teenagers have the mental capacity of full grown adults, the capability to understand the world around them. For good or for ill, most teenagers today continue to live an extended childhood until they are at least 18. They are fully capable of understanding very adult concepts, but their access to the world is severely limited. This encourages them to believe that, since they have processed all the information available to them, they have processed all of the information available. Getting out of high school and moving on to whatever reveals to many a sort of cruel joke that's been played on them as they realize the rules they've learned to play the game by are just a small subset of the rules life is actually lived by.

It's a big adjustment. Easy for some, hard for most, and excruciatingly painful for a few. Your friends will either figure it out or they won't. You can't figure it out for them, but you can talk to them and encourage them and love them and pray for them.

and not to start a debate or anything... but I am really curious... I've been taught "once saved always saved." (I know that there is a huge disagreement among denominations here... about that. ) but does someone denouncing Christ...mean that they lose their salvation? Can one just tell God, "I'm sorry, I want to return this Gift?"

This is a tremendously strong bone of contention among the denominations. Every bit as strong as whether and what form of baptism "counts." My answer is the same regardless of the context of saving a non-believer or a Christian who has fallen away. It is our faith that saves us through the grace of Jesus Christ.

At least one school of "once saved, always saved" thought would point out that if a Christian "falls away," then they never truly had the faith required for salvation in the first place - meaning they were never saved to begin with. At this point the discussion largely becomes one of semantics. The fact is, we can not truly know who is saved. We can only judge based on works, which can lie. God, to His glory, knows what truly lies in our hearts and that is the measure by which we will be sorted as sheep or goats.

(Consider beatification in the Catholic Church. Anyone who is truly saved is a saint. To be named a saint by the Catholic Church is to be certified that you are indeed saved. If you do not qualify for sainthood, it does not mean you are not a saint (as in not saved), it just means that the church can not find enough evidence to be 100% certain of your salvation.)

[Warrior4Christ]

The early 20's were the roughest part of my life to date. My faith and my understanding of the very nature of God's being were strongly challenged. It was a time of great darkness. No one brought me up out of this darkness, I figured it out on my own through the grace and wisdom of the Almighty God. It's not that people didn't care or weren't interested in me. It's more that I had to re-evaluate the world I thought I knew. No one could do that for me.

Another thing to add-
An older person at church semi-recently commended me for still participating actively in the church at 22 (because that is the age group that has the highest number of people leaving the church..). I didn't really think much of it at the time, but I see now more of the significance of it.

[Prince Asbel]

I think this thread has strayed off topic a little bit. So I'm going to try and address the original question: "How should I respond to these friends? I love them so much. I don't want them to miss what God wants to do with their lives."

Given the information you've presented, I think it's safe to conclude that these friends of yours are not Christian. No serious Christian would deny God's existence or adopt a hedonist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonist) worldview. If for some reason you still believe they are Christian then it is your duty to call them on their behavior. It seems you did it for one of them, but they all need it. If they reject God, then that's as much as you're required to do. You've done as much as an individual Christian is required.

Of course, you need to take it to the elders in your church if you haven't already. The Bible says that the duty of the elders is to exhort a person among their members they believe to be Christian to discontinue their acts of sin. If they don't, then that's it. At that point it's time for to declare their non-Christianity. But that's a job for the elders, so you don't need to feel burdened with that


--

As a side note, it's not crazy to say people who act unsaved after acting saved were not saved to begin with. 1 John 2:18-19 says "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." (NIV)

This passage clearly states that there were those in the church who weren't really Christians that left the church because they were really people who hated God- or more particularly, Christ.

[Syreth]

Personally, I don't believe it's our job to decide who is saved and who is not, especially with people that we've never met before.

But I want to emphasize prayer. A lot. Because it's really God who wants them to come back to Him more than anybody else, so you can count on Him doing His level best to show them the truth.

Be available to them, love them, and communicate with them. Answer their questions, and avoid monologuing about their need for repentance. They've been to church, so they already know they're not doing the right thing; but speak the truth in love when you get the chance and as the Spirit leads.

[Tsukuyomi]

Whatever you do, do not desert them. That's the worst thing you can do. Just continue being their friends. If they are true Christians, they'll return on their own. It could just be a phase they are going through. Yes, I know, that's no excuse, but it does happen.

I agree with Syreth. Answer any questions they may have without pushing to much onto them (preaching, if you will). Show them the love that Christ would even if they are starting to stray. If they see that, I'm sure they will return ^ ^

[Lochaber Axe]

On "once saved, always saved", be very careful of that phrase. Even Christ himself said that many would call him Lord but he would not know them. Christ called us to attend the Narrow way, and that goes far beyond simply proclaiming his divinity.

Paul alludes to Abraham when he quotes Genesis,

“Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.â€

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Whatever you do, do not desert them. That's the worst thing you can do. Just continue being their friends. If they are true Christians, they'll return on their own. It could just be a phase they are going through. Yes, I know, that's no excuse, but it does happen.

Unfortunately, I think that some relationships do have to become broken. By no means give up on them, but if your friendship with them is causing your own spiritual life to suffer, then it's advisable that ties are cut.

And we all like to think that we're invincible and whatnot, but I think we underestimate the effects of people towards us many times.

[Tsukuyomi]

Unfortunately, I think that some relationships do have to become broken. By no means give up on them, but if your friendship with them is causing your own spiritual life to suffer, then it's advisable that ties are cut.

And we all like to think that we're invincible and whatnot, but I think we underestimate the effects of people towards us many times.

That's true. The only thing is to watch our backs, but still try to be there for them. Especially, if they are not trying to sway you away from God. They may just be confused at this point in time. If not, they wouldn't be questioning things, right?

I can say be there for them until I'm blue in the face, but then again. .I don't know the situation. Like, how bad things are with them and whatnot, so I can't really say anything I guess u_u

[Raiden no Kishi]

Hey guys,
I'm a bit confused. And sad. I have several friends (both from back in high school and from college) who once were practicing Christians, but now have fallen away and are living like the world--they put up pictures on Facebook/Myspace of themselves partying it up, drinking beer--they write with strong language. I've even had one friend say to me that she's not sure God exists anymore--and she is a Christian.
When I tried to confront a friend and encourage him to pursue what is eternal instead of temporary pleasure/happiness: "Nothing is eternal. Everything is fleeting. We simply have this one life to live and it is short. Beyond that, sadly, lies nothing. Nothing waits for us after death, nothing will be there to greet us save perpetual unconsciousness. So while alive I plan to live to my utmost potential and have a lot of fun in the process at no one else's expense. And if anyone wants to judge me in the mean time, .... em."
It just saddens me so much to see people that I once went to church with, worshiped with, go to Bible studies with, hung out with, etc. go down the paths that they have. It's like they've turned their backs on God. I know many of them have been hurt very, very badly...but so have I and I (though I do go my own way many times) haven't given up on believing that God has a plan somehow.
How should I respond to these friends? I love them so much. I don't want them to miss what God wants to do with their lives.

Regardless of the "once saved, always saved issue" (which should probably be left alone), don't give up on your friends. It sounds like the one (at least) is coming from a nihilist/hedonist viewpoint, which is certainly not a Christian view. Don't let them pressure you into their sins, and pray like there's no tomorrow. After all, there could not be.

You sound like you really have a heart for your friends - that is pleasing to God. Take comfort in that and do what you know is right. ^_^

.rai//

[Mave]

First, I'll say that I wouldn't give up hope on your friends completely. I mean, I was backslidden in my late teens - early 20s.

I didn't necessarily do worldly things (e.g. get drunk, cuss, do drugs etc.etc.). I simply didn't think God was important in my life then and just went on doing things/pursuing ambitions on my own. [ What's point of saying this? Nothing, just wanted to point out that Christians who backslide don't necessarily exhibit it like your friends have done - we're the silent ones who just fade out of the background. At least, you KNOW your friend is struggling.]

Gee, how did this happen? IMO, simple. I had no fellowship or support group. I was one of those lone ranger Christians. My family wasn't enthusiatic about the faith, none of my friends were Christian then. No accountability whatsoever - frankly, no one cared if I stopped practising the faith. So I quietly left.

What brought me back? I guess that after a few years of doing things my way [and finding no satisfaction], I yearned for meaning in life. After some soul-searching, I decided to commit my life to God.

It's important to note that in those years before backslidding, I wasn't as serious about God. I didn't come to depend on God or hunger to know more about Him. I just didn't see Him relevant to my life and I was blind then. So eventhough I was baptized in my teens, I don't think I was truly in sync with Him. Was I saved then? I think so but now that I've recommitted my life, what does that matter?

So it's my opinion that Christians who backslide need encouragement, prayers and support from their fellow brothers and sisters. Maybe it's negative experiences with church or fellow believers. Maybe it's disappointment in God - something tragic happened. Maybe it's temptation and a weakness for a worldly activity. Maybe it's the lack of joy and perception that being Christian is boring/irrelevant. Maybe it's peer/family pressure. Maybe their faith is a cause of conflict in their lives and they decided that it's just not worth the pain and suffering.

My personal take would be to try to understand your friends and find the cause of them leaving. I would not participate in anything that would compromise your commitment to God but you can make yourself available whenever they come to you in need. If they don't come to you, it's OK. Be patient, hopeful and prayerful. Do your best not to condemn or judge them in any way. If your friend is the type who just need some encouragement and support, give it to them. But if your friend has hardened his/her hearts and is extremely stubborn, pray for them and leave them to God. In such case, the conversation is between them and God, and God has His own Timing. You need to pray for His Wisdom as to how to handle each individual because it's a case-to-case basis.

But overall, look at them as how our loving God would. I love the Prodigal Son story. The Father must have been shocked and deeply saddened upon learning that his son wanted to leave home and do his own thing. And yet, he allowed him to - free will. The Father didn't go out to the world, follow his son and dragged him back forcefully. Neither did the Father condemn or disown his son (Amazing!).

The Father instead, waited patiently for his son to come back (I'd imagine that he prayed in faith) and when his son came back realizing that nothing out there can satisfy, everyone welcomed him with open hands and celebrated.

We wait and hope for that day of celebration so don't give up hope.

[Doubleshadow]

I had a friend whose faith fell apart in high school. We all watched it happen. He loved to argue, and I don't mean debate, I mean argue. We went with it at first because that was partly his personality, but soon it became obvious that his teasing about things being not true, just to hear our counter arguments, collided with his need to be right all the time. He began getting aggressive and accusatory, saying Biblical truths and historical facts were 'opinions' when he couldn't counter and saying we were all just blind when it came to things most people have to take on faith. His pride got totally out of control, and he began to take it personally when we wouldn't stroke his ego by telling him he was right when he clearly wasn't just so he could hear it. I called him on it the end. And he stormed off in a huff of arrogance and superiority.
Would patience and prayer have fixed it? Maybe. Maybe I misread his degree of sincerity in his questions, but he gave the impression of seeing us as a game to play that he had to win just so he could say he did. His focus was on himself, what he wanted, his pride, his sense of entitlement, and as long as that was true he wouldn't get any closer to God. He wanted his answers on his terms in his way and if God didn't do that, perform on command, He wasn't there. I think a lot of people fall into that around the late teens early 20's. They are trying to learn to do things on their own and set up everything to their own specifications, including God. When He doesn't neatly fit into their expectations, they assume He wasn't there and it was situational. A + B doesn't equal C now, so maybe it never really worked.
Some people get over this some don't. Being their for your friends in prayer and in person can be the perfect way for them to see God, but at the same time you may have to give them up if they damage your walk. They may be something you have to sacrifice to God. If you wear out your own faith trying to help them, it's just going to make it look like you only have your own power and God doesn't really exist; He is just in your mind otherwise He would be helping you.
Only you know what's really going on between all of you, and only God really knows their hearts. To summarize, do what you can for them, but remember that if they are determined to turn their back on God for now or forever, until they change their minds and hearts or God does it for them, that's the way it's going to have to be.

[NekoChan_C]

[quote="ChristianKitsune (post: 1219149)"]This same thing happened to me a few months ago... A guy who I was great friends in high school who was an amazing Christian suddenly told me that he just doesn't believe in the God he grew up knowing.

This struck me VERY hard... :/ and it was really wierd, because for a while, It was hard to breath after he told me that...my heart was literally breaking for him, and for others who have fallen away...

but my dad told me something that made a lot of sense...

In between the time someone graduates high school and the age of the 25 or so church attendance falls dramatically. Now, I know going to church doesn't make anyone a Christian or not, but it does show something...

I think that a lot of young Christians fall away, and then come back to God after they have had enough of living life "their way." It's horrible, and very sad to see our friends suffer so much...

But preaching to them won't help anything... seriously, you can talk to people until they are blue in the face about God...but a lot of times people will tune us out. :/

All we can do is love them, and pray for them...and pray for ourselves that God will give us the words to say, when HE wants us to say it...if we act on our own...it just won't work.

We just need to keep praying for our friends and loved ones...

and not to start a debate or anything... but I am really curious... I've been taught "once saved always saved." (I know that there is a huge disagreement among denominations here... about that. ) but does someone denouncing Christ...mean that they lose their salvation? Can one just tell God, "I'm sorry, I want to return this Gift?"

It's something I've always wondered...but I've never been too sure about.. ^^]

There is a TON of truth in this post... because even those of us who never stopped believing in Him have sometimes stopped living FOR Him...We go our way, and maybe we don't so much walk away from God as we wander away and by the time we realize it... we can't even see Him anymore. Like a child wanders from their parent but doesn't feel afraid until it really clicks that he's alone...

But the good thing is that I truly believe in the words of Proverbs 22:6... "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it". I am a walking example of this. At those times when my life was at it's lowest, I would remember God and run -- RUN -- to Him, because I knew that there was no one else that could possibly help me, comfort me, or fix me. Only Him.

Pray for your friends. Show them Christ's love whenever possible and in every way possible. We as Christians are blessed to have the Holy Spirit in us and in that, we have the ability and power to change people's thinking, people's feelings, people's lives. There is no heart that Jesus' love cannot soften.

[oro!]

When He doesn't neatly fit into their expectations, they assume He wasn't there and it was situational. A + B doesn't equal C now, so maybe it never really worked.

QFT

This is part of what happened to a friend of mine last year. She was a great, sacrificing, faithful Christian. Her weakness: she was eternally skeptical, always trying to figure everything out for herself, ever revising the theories she was sure of the day or week or month or year before.
I saw her spiral downwards, from a pretty orthodox Baptist with a couple of kinks(check out open theism some time) to a KJV-onlyist, to wearing a veil, to someone who believed Jesus was not God, to a near Jew. When she got to the last step, she broke down somewhere. We were having good, redemptive conversation a week before, and then she simply left religion altogether. Now she's just a hedonistic atheist(a nice one and all that, but that is not what counts eternally).
I know I must wait upon the Lord in this situation. It has only been a few months. She's basically like Sheenar's friends in the OP. It's just hard. I was a fool and lied to myself that last month, but I don't know if I could have pulled her out of the fire she jumped into. I just thought that she'd grow and maybe be my sort of heterodox sister who could be coaxed back. Now she's an enemy. One I will feed, be a friend to, and generally love.
But this whole situation makes me think that enduring through hardship has something to do with whether or not a person is truly a follower of the Christ. Just take the gospels and that's what you get. Jesus(or God in the parables) seems to be interminably disowning people because of their choices. I don't know, but I do know that we can trust in God And that I must wait. Maybe she'll come around after all of this stuff loses its fun to her...Any further advice? This is just the of a 17 year old

[KeybladeWarrior]

Whatever you do, do not desert them. That's the worst thing you can do. Just continue being their friends. If they are true Christians, they'll return on their own. It could just be a phase they are going through. Yes, I know, that's no excuse, but it does happen.

I agree with Syreth. Answer any questions they may have without pushing to much onto them (preaching, if you will). Show them the love that Christ would even if they are starting to stray. If they see that, I'm sure they will return ^ ^

Well, what if they decide not to return? Yeah, still try to be there friend and watch your back. Maybe stay a friend or end it if your spirtual walk is going the wrong way. Yes, the repeating continues.

[Sammy Boy]

I think one of the best things you can do for your friends is to keep on loving them and keep in contact with them. Eventually if they trust you enough they will share more of themselves with you. Then you can listen to their stories and share your own stories and encourage them.

This is not to say that you should not witness to them, but do so in an indirect, non-verbal manner. Keep praying for them too.

As Francis of Assisi has said "Preach at all times, and if necessary, use words."

[NuclearPeon]

No, if you could lose your salvation, then that would mean that Christ's sacrifice isn't sufficient. It's like saying "Christ's blood covers and does away with your sins, but not that sin." (the sin of denouncing Christ). No, I believe that once you're a child of God, you are always a child of God, even if you go out and live like heck like the rest of the world does. (No, God's grace isn't a license to sin, but some Christians do live like they have that view.)

If you couldn't lose your salvation, it would be like refusing God's gift but with him telling you that "No, you are stuck with it now."
With marriage, there can also be divorce. God made mention of that in the bible. We have to make the choice to be saved or not, the entirety of salvation revolves around our decision. Relationships can be broken... I don't want to start a fight, and this is definitely not a comforting topic to debate, but I believe salvation is through choice and choice can be changed.

I don't intent to offend anyone, but I do feel strongly about it.
What fun is heaven if people are reluctant to go?

[Prince Asbel]

If you couldn't lose your salvation, it would be like refusing God's gift but with him telling you that "No, you are stuck with it now."
With marriage, there can also be divorce. God made mention of that in the bible. We have to make the choice to be saved or not, the entirety of salvation revolves around our decision. Relationships can be broken... I don't want to start a fight, and this is definitely not a comforting topic to debate, but I believe salvation is through choice and choice can be changed.

I don't intent to offend anyone, but I do feel strongly about it.
What fun is heaven if people are reluctant to go?

Hmmm... I really feel like responding to this, but I feel that this post being totally theological is an infraction of the rules. So to avoid breaking them further, I would ask if you'd like to continue discussing this via e-mail. It is an important thing to talk about, but I don't want to talk about it for the sake of debate. I want to talk about it because I feel this view of salvation is incorrect and can stir unnecessary doubts for you and others.

So anyway, if you feel like talking about it, send me a PM, and we'll exchange e-mails. Again, this is all in christian love, not looking for a fight.

[Sheenar]

NuclearPeon, I would like to discuss this with you as well. I would respond here, but I don't want to start theological debate. Would it be ok if I sent you a PM?

[Alexander]

I've already fiercely faced these trials as young as 15 and today they've been intensifying. Whether it will get more or less really depends on what my future brings me.

My faith has been severely beaten though for the past two years. In some ways I've changed, but I feel that was good for my benefit, and in others I've been challenged to my very core. What's amazing for me though is the fact that the very thing that causes most other people to commit suicide or abandon their faith, is the same thing that reminds me why I stay where I am.

I've always struggled to keep any relationships going in my life as I've stressed so many times. Including Christians. A few I've known left me at the very time I needed them the most desperately. In most other people's cases, they would have left their faith a long time ago. (And I know some Aspies who have for these reasons, among a few more)

But what keeps me back is just that. Loneliness. I've come to realize that people are sadly imperfect to the very deepest levels of their heart, and I've had to face periods of total loneliness. So when you have no one left, who do you go to? Currently God is the only person I know of who could stay by me, and that's the reason I stay. My faith actually has gone from a community level to one that feels completely private just to myself. For now that's how I want it.

I actually can't recall anything like this in my own life as any Christian I've known in real life eventually left my life, and I haven't heard from them since. But I understand the heartache of feeling like you've lost a friend.

To put it honestly Sheenar, all you can really do is pray for them and put your faith in God that they'll find him again. You can talk to them yes, be a friend for them to the very end, but their ultimate fates are left in their hands and God's. Many times it's very hard to accept that reality, but you have to remain faithful for their future.

Also, I believe that Salvation is something that can be lost and that humans do make a choice in whether to receive it or not. And that's my $0.02