Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K General Discussion

[Yamamaya]

We had a Warhammer topic back in the day, but it seems to have gotten deleted somehow. This displeases the Empra.

Anyway, I collect Warhammer and Warhammer 40K. For Warhammer, I have a Lizardmen army. For 40K, I have a Tyranid and Necron army. I do have an Eldar army but I will selling that one soon on ebay.
So basically in my main 40K armies, I have one top tier army in the current 6th edition of rules(Necrons), and another that has suffered thanks to new close combat and shooting rules. Overall, close combat orientated armies have gotten much weaker.
I'll post some army lists here soon. Feel free to post your army lists as well.

[Crossfire]

I used to be into the GW hobby in general, but crap got expensive. Doesn't help that the "community" in my city is... unattractive to say the least.

[Peanut]

Huh, I didn't notice that it got deleted. I just sort of assumed we had run out of things to talk about. Anyway, I "play" 40k and have a Tyranids, Grey Knight and Necrons army. I'll actually be playing a bit more sometime in the future since the person who got me into 40k is moving back to around where I live. I am thoroughly looking forward to seeing my mass of Tyranids rip his army to shreds.

Edit: You know what, I might as well post a list. This is something I've been toying around with recently for whenever I play my friend point total is 1500 though I don't remember if my friend has an army big enough to play at that point total or if he will want to. I can however drop this list down to 1250 or 1200 pretty easily by dropping the Carnifex and a Hive Gaurd

Hive Tyrant-Wings, 2 Twin Linked Devourers, Old Adversery, 2 psychic powers

3 Hive Guard

10 Termagants-Devourers
10 Termagants-Devourers
Tervigon-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, 3 Psychic Powers
Tervigon-Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Cluster Spines, 3 Psychic Powers

Carnifex-2 Twin linked Devourers, Frag Spines, Toxin Sacs
Trygon Prime

I've wanted to play a Monstrous Creature focused list for a little while now since it has less models to move and I've heard its fun to play. My thought process with this list is as follows. In this game, I will likely be playing against my friends Chaos Space Marine army. He goes for a lot of Khorne Berzerkers and Plauge Marines that jump out of Rhinos, kill things and never die. Historically, I have not done well against this army with my Tyranids. The lower the point value, the better 6 wound, toughness 6 creatures get. Add in stuff like Iron Arm and Endurance from Biomancy and they become almost impossible to wound. Tervigons and Trygons fit this criteria perfectly and will serve to create a nasty wall of flesh with the ability of to wreck vehicles and hold/contest objectives. Devourers are also nasty on any Tyranid model and combined with Overwatch, they make my army the kind that you don't want to assault into. This will render the Khorne Berzerkers useless and force him to play more defensively. The Hive Guard, Carnifex and Winged Tyrant can all take down Rhinos from a distance however I'll have to get within 18-24 inches for them to be in range which could leave me vulnerable to some of his shooting. The Winged Tyrant is there for disruption but I'm going to play conservatively with him until I know I can use him without him being shot down by a pistol. He'll swoop around and pick apart what's left of my opponents army while the rest of my army marches forward. Objecitves will be held by spawned gaunts which should be ok as long as I'm careful with them. All of the Monstrous creatures I have can deal with Plague Marines though I'll probably be reliant on what Psychic Powers my Tervigons end up with to determine whether they will just tie up the Plauge Mairnes or be able to kill them quickly enough. I think it will end up being a pretty interesting match whenever we have it.

[mechana2015]

GW's killing off online stores worldwide now so I'm really conflicted about them. On one hand, crazy, terrible business practices, on the other side...Tau update in 2 weeks. =.=

(though most of our releases being greater than 50 bucks each... not exactly encouraging)

[Peanut]

GW's killing off online stores worldwide now so I'm really conflicted about them. On one hand, crazy, terrible business practices, on the other side...Tau update in 2 weeks. =.=

(though most of our releases being greater than 50 bucks each... not exactly encouraging)

That's GW for you. I almost bought a Chaos Demons Codex on a whim until I realized there was no version available under $50 that was relevant...so lost sale there GW.

[mechana2015]

Oh yeah the new Tau codex is 50, and I'll still buy that because I would like to still be able to play the game. But on top of that, Broadsides went up from 40 to 50, which is... it's been re-sculpted and is in plastic but that is STEEP for a unit you can as of current rules, run 9 of...
Our flier is 65, so thats... expected but still over the limit.
And finally, the mega battle suit MC we're getting is 85 dollars. 8-5. I get the tier it's in but that's just a lot of money for plastic. Competing companies are putting out resin for comparable prices.

I was going to do some allies forces but... I can't justify ~100 in books for that to get a Marines book and a Dark Eldar Book. I haven't even managed to get a 6th ed rulebook yet.

[Yamamaya]

Nice list Peanut. It's nice to see people still using Carnifexes.

I have a footsloggin Necron army, with only one Night/Doom Scythe. I don't feel like spending a ton of money purchasing more Scythes, regardless of how effective flyer lists are in 6th.

The new codex/army book prices do suck indeed. Eldar are getting a new codex soon. Probably won't stick around with eldar to see that codex though. Managing two armies is hard enough on the wallet.

I'm almost finished with my Tyranid Nidzilla 2000 point army list. Just need some Gargolyes.

HQ-585
Hive Tyrant with Wings twin linked devourers with brainleech worms-245
Swarmlord with One Hive Guard-340
Troops
10 Termagants-50
1 Tervigon with Adrenal Glands Toxin Sacs and Crushing Claws- 205
10 Termagants-50
1 Tervigon with Adrenal Glands Toxin Sacs and Crushing Claws-205
Elites
3 Hive Guard-150
3 Hive Guard-150
Fast Attack
20 Gargoyles with AG and TS-160
Heavy Support
Trygon Prime with Toxin Sac-250
Trygon Prime-240

For a total of 1995. Should be a fun list. Might adjust it to drop in the Doom of Malanthai.

[Peanut]

Doom is freaking awesome. Seriously, for his price, he's crazy good especially when you put him in a spore and manage to drop him in range of an enemy unit. One thing to consider with your list is making room for more psychic powers on the Tervigons and then swapping them for the new book psychic powers namely from biomancy. Their normal Psychic abilities are good but they aren't as good as getting stuff like Endurance (which does the same as Catalyst AND gives Eternal warrior) and Iron Arm (which turns the Tervigons into unkillable walls of flesh). It really makes them way better which is why I'm taking three powers on my Tervigons in my list. Other then that it looks pretty good.

[Yamamaya]

Yeah Doom just absorbing all of those wounds is a really awesome ability. Especially when he deep strikes right in between a bunch of your enemies' units. His only weakness is his T4 which lets him be insta killed by S8 weapons pretty easily. Then again, I'd be deep striking the Trygons too, so the enemy would have a lot to worry about.

I hope when we do get a codex update, it will buff Genestealers. New outflanking rules really take away their greatest strength, especially since they are such a glass cannon anyway.

[Peanut]

Yeah Doom just absorbing all of those wounds is a really awesome ability. Especially when he deep strikes right in between a bunch of your enemies' units. His only weakness is his T4 which lets him be insta killed by S8 weapons pretty easily. Then again, I'd be deep striking the Trygons too, so the enemy would have a lot to worry about.

If your a gambling man you can give up his one Psychic power for something from Biomancy and pray that you roll Iron Arm. Iron Arm raises toughness and strength by 2 separate d3 rolls and gives you eternal warrior which means that The Doom's weakness is now gone. This is, however, a pretty big gamble and there are other things you can give Doom that gives it guaranteed, better damage output.

I hope when we do get a codex update, it will buff Genestealers. New outflanking rules really take away their greatest strength, especially since they are such a glass cannon anyway.

Rumor has it we're in line to get a codex update next year. If the rumors are true (and mind you these are rumors about stuff in play testing so even if they are true doesn't mean it will make it into the book), they are going to do something to allow Tyranids to assault better. So Genestealers will be able to do more then they currently can.

[mechana2015]

I'll be posting updated lists once our codex comes out. From the looks of things from the various rumors we might be switching to an army more centered on killing monstrous creatures, but that's just a theory based on story and how they seem to be reducing some of our more plentiful guns and changing our weapons load outs.

Interesting to hear about how the new psychic rules are influencing Nids.
BTW have I mentioned I hate Tervigons?

[Yamamaya]

I picked up a Tau codex once. Seemed fairly interesting. Tau could definitely use some assault orientated units.

Tervigons are one of the Tyranids best units. Spawning bugs, sitting on objectives, tough as nails. What's not to love?

[mechana2015]

We won't be getting assault oriented units, just better defense against being assaulted, if anything. GW's answer to tau assault issues generally is 'take allies', since that earns them more money than making a balanced game.

The tau codex is a wreck currently and I'm really looking forward to the rewrite if only for the formatting fix. On a quick brush through you might not see it, but all of our wargear is divided up between vehicles, battlesuits and infantry, with repeated entries for pieces that are repeated in different locations. In addition to that we have no actual Army composition section like most current codexes have. That nice little area that summarizes your options and points is only sort of half done, and combined with the descriptions. It probably takes a good 15-20 minutes extra to make an army using the book alone, just due to page flipping.

As to why I hate Tervigons?

Let us tell a story.

I was in a League using the battle missions book, and I had a match against our local Nids player. Tervigons had just come out at the time (no model even), and the Nids were a fairly fresh codex. We rolled for mission and came up with a mission that divides the board into 6 sections. No reserves are allowed. You then roll for each of your units and place them in the matching numbered square on the board. One of my firewarrior squads got a square in a corner with a building. Awesome! Good vantage point and some defenses. Tervigon roll... same square. Gets placed in bottom floor of building. Overrun turn 1, entire army dead turn 2.

[Peanut]

Interesting to hear about how the new psychic rules are influencing Nids.
BTW have I mentioned I hate Tervigons?

6th Edition psychic powers are the best thing that has happened to Nids. The sheer volume of of psychic abilities you can get in a Nids list basically allows you to tailor your list legally to each opponent you face. Its a major upgrade with them and has made them competitive from everything I've been hearing.

[mechana2015]

That's good to hear, since it's sounding like nids might be on the far side of the updates cycle... from what I've heard, next is either Marines or Eldar, followed by the other, them probably nids or orks, then IG then nids or orks. On a fast schedule that could put them as far away as March of next year, or as soon as October/November. Either way still a bit of a wait before anything new shows up. I do wish some days they had a better schedule, the other game I play has it's releases known for... 4 months ahead of time, down to the release day usually. Makes planning easier.

[Peanut]

Yeah that's what I've heard as well. I'm fine with waiting as long as it comes. I think in many ways Orks need an update before Nids. Nids at least had a codex in the last edition even if it wasn't very good.

[mechana2015]

Yeah...Orcs are about to become the new Tau I think, 2 editions old and feeling it badly, though at least they have a flier.

[Yamamaya]

I found the Tau codex very confusing. The wargear section was a mess, units are called different names in different places. I recall not knowing where I was supposed to read to figure out how to design any sort of army list.

I've noticed quite a few army books and codices have a bit weird organization. The Lizardmen army book doesn't define what blowguns actually do save on the summary page for the Chameleon Skinks, not in the army composition book. Also the Tyranid codex had a few places where certain weapons and abilities would be explained in the unit summary, but not in the list of weapons. But even that was better than the Tau codex since the weapons list would list the weapon and list the page number where you can read about its abilities.

I'm going ahead and selling my Eldar on ebay, two armies are enough for me to handle atm.

Having looked at both Warhammer fantasy, and 40k, it's interesting how much more complex magic is in Warhammer fantasy than psychic powers are in 40K. In 40K, you just have to take a leadership test and activate your ability. In Fantasy, first you have to roll 2D6 to determine how many power dice you can use for your magic phase. Then your opponent gets dispel power dice from those. There are also generally a lot more buffs and debuffs in Fantasy than there are in 40K. Overall, the Warhammer fantasy system is a bit more complex than 40K.

[mechana2015]

So I swung by a local game store today, and lo and behold in the consignment case someone had dropped the 6th ed mini rule book for 25. This goes for about 23-24 + shipping on ebay so I snagged it, so now I have a current rule book to peruse and figure out the differences from more thoroughly.

On a more annoying note, I need to rebase my broadsides apparantly, as they've gone up from terminator bases to Dreadnaught bases. :/

Edit: Got some resin bases to redo them from forgecraft. I think I'll be tearing them entirely apart and rebuilding the models with mods to match the new style more. I'd originally intended to do this anyways, but being in a weekly escalation sort of ruined those plans in a big way. For anyone thats big on building, modding, fancy basing and non speed painting should NEVER do an escalation league for 40K, there's too many models in the average army to do a good job at any of those unless you have nothing to do but paint and build models, week upon week. It actually somewhat killed a lot of my interest in the game for quite a while, between the Tau Codex getting smashed by pretty much everyone (I won one game total, against another Tau Player... and most games weren't close), and feeling rushed to paint to get the points for painting/modeling .

[Peanut]

Edit: Got some resin bases to redo them from forgecraft. I think I'll be tearing them entirely apart and rebuilding the models with mods to match the new style more. I'd originally intended to do this anyways, but being in a weekly escalation sort of ruined those plans in a big way. For anyone thats big on building, modding, fancy basing and non speed painting should NEVER do an escalation league for 40K, there's too many models in the average army to do a good job at any of those unless you have nothing to do but paint and build models, week upon week. It actually somewhat killed a lot of my interest in the game for quite a while, between the Tau Codex getting smashed by pretty much everyone (I won one game total, against another Tau Player... and most games weren't close), and feeling rushed to paint to get the points for painting/modeling .

I'm curious, were you mostly getting out-shot or out-assaulted?

[mechana2015]

I'm curious, were you mostly getting out-shot or out-assaulted?

Out Assaulted. 5th edition was brutal on Tau due to how assaults worked, especially once the Nid and Blood Angels codices came out. Tau couldn't move fast enough to avoid assaulting armies, especially large hordes of orcs or nids or large groups of multi-save moves (FNP'd Blood Angels and Orcs).

Example 1: A 30 model boys squad with a painboy on hand could assault 2-3 units of firewarriors, usually after only taking a single volley or less (run two squads of 30, assault with the one the opponent doesn't shoot up) would roll in with 3 attacks each (no penalty for multi assault in 5th) on 2-3 squads of firewarriors, including possibly wrapping around a speedbump unit only need to whip 3-4 guys into each unit. With a 3+ to hit and 3 hits each, only 4 orcs can semi feasibly drop wounds on 1/2 of a 10 man unit, on decent rolls, and not lose much in return between tau not hitting back too hard, armor saves and FNP, let alone what happens when you get 10 of them (30 attacks) hitting each of your 10 man units, with a whole second OR THIRD squad following behind.

Example 2: Blood Angels. Assault squads are normal troops, better armor save than Tau, come in groups of 10, 3+ armor, feel no pain and furious charge with a sanguanary priest. Hit on 3+, wound on 2+. Most people had 3 squads + a few death company. Odds are you MIGHT gun a squad down while they're coming at you, but at that point AP 5 ain't helpin as much so it's down to railguns and plasma rifles. Once they hit they'll be dropping 10-20 attacks depending on how many survive, and thats if they're NOT death company. Either that or they send in a couple guys to several close units and make them fight melee for several turns, locking up a couple point capping units with as few as one unit which may not even be a capping unit.

Worst case scenario, Dante's cruising with a squad with a Sanguinary Priest, they deep strike and assault a unit, unit loses combat but the 5 or so survivors don't break, then die on the Tau assault phase. Dante and Co. roll tide on the next closest Tau unit (anyone within a foot + their consolodate roll, regardless of terrain lol jump packs) with no possibility of shooting recourse, and probably no losses due to Tau low melee skill, high BA armor and FNP. Rinse and repeat until 12 guys have eaten as many units as the game has turns. Rest of army does whatever it wants.

Tau's only defense was to buy photon grenades to take away the extra charging attacks, but thats all they did. Lack of overwatch and the ability to assault out of deep strike meant that units died without getting a chance to do damage, and due to krak grenades and guaranteed charges, cover and terrain were worth almost nothing. Generally what happened was 2 turns of frantic shooting and attempting to cap points before we were herded into a corner or into the back of our own deployment and chewed through by guys with chainswords until morale broke and units ran off the board or were cleaned off in the mop up phase of assault. We only did all right at around 750 or so points due to how costly things are.

I ordered my 6th ed tau book yesterday. We'll see how much I play, I'm looking forward to playing with the better assault rules though, clearly.

[Peanut]

Yeah that's kind of what I figured. At higher point games you could probably try bubble wrapping your units in cheap Kroot Squads or something but at 750 and bellow....yeah. I think Tau has benefited a bit from the new rules simply because they can overwatch when things assault them. I don't think its helped too much though but I haven't really paid attention to what people have said. The new book should.

[mechana2015]

Kroot bubblewrap only went so far unfortunately. A kroot squad of 12 (a box) with no save still racked up over 80 points, over 110 if you wanted them to have a 6+ save, all while chewing up an infantry slot, blocking line of sight and dying on 3's to bolter fire and flamers, no save allowed. Good luck against a landspeeder with a heavy flamer and deepstrike, or even just a well planned scout move. (I'm not even gonna bring up what newer stuff does to kroot... needless to say, unless they got a biiig buff or points cut, they're gonna be rare due to things like the Chaos dragon flamer).

The new book should help a ton since we'll supposedly be getting ICHQs allowing a 50-100% increase in fire rate if we stand our ground, and the ability to Overwatch with any unit within a certain distance of a unit that's being assaulted. Combined with a possible 1 point reduction in firewarrior costs (and hopefully a 1-2 point reduction to kroot) could make things seem more reasonable.

We also picked up an extra 3 inches to rapid fire thanks to another shift in the main rules.

(I did slightly mess up the rules up there, you can't assault out of Deep Strike, even in 5th ed.)

Edit 4/3: reports are coming in that GW shorted the plastics drastically and they may not be available from many retailers for a few weeks. Welp more time to plan my stuff out then and carefully consider what I'll really need.

[Peanut]

Kroot bubblewrap only went so far unfortunately. A kroot squad of 12 (a box) with no save still racked up over 80 points, over 110 if you wanted them to have a 6+ save, all while chewing up an infantry slot, blocking line of sight and dying on 3's to bolter fire and flamers, no save allowed. Good luck against a landspeeder with a heavy flamer and deepstrike, or even just a well planned scout move. (I'm not even gonna bring up what newer stuff does to kroot... needless to say, unless they got a biiig buff or points cut, they're gonna be rare due to things like the Chaos dragon flamer).

The new book should help a ton since we'll supposedly be getting ICHQs allowing a 50-100% increase in fire rate if we stand our ground, and the ability to Overwatch with any unit within a certain distance of a unit that's being assaulted. Combined with a possible 1 point reduction in firewarrior costs (and hopefully a 1-2 point reduction to kroot) could make things seem more reasonable.

We also picked up an extra 3 inches to rapid fire thanks to another shift in the main rules.

(I did slightly mess up the rules up there, you can't assault out of Deep Strike, even in 5th ed.)

Edit 4/3: reports are coming in that GW shorted the plastics drastically and they may not be available from many retailers for a few weeks. Welp more time to plan my stuff out then and carefully consider what I'll really need.

You'll have to let us know how everything in the Tau codex is. I think the only army that could assault out of deep strike were Blood Angels (though I might be wrong on that).

[mechana2015]

I think you're correct on that, the problem is that said escalation league that sort of killed my interest started right after the BA codex came out so about 1/4 to 1/3 of the players were running BA (army flavor of the month), all with the Dante-nuke. The orc player from that league has declared that he'll pretty much never play against a BA army again due to this, and I think that codex (and GK but I wasn't playing when they came out) is probably the best example of the flavor of the monthism that really hurts tournaments and leagues in 40K, and penalizes people that stick with one army for a long time.

[Peanut]

Interestingly enough, from what I understand, Tyranids were mildly boasted by Grey Knights when the codex first came out. Not as much as when 6th edition was released which essentially elevated them to near elite status, but enough that they were playable. Its one of the few books that when played well was a difficult match-up for Grey Knights in 5th edition...well some Grey Knight lists. I don't think it was good against Paladins.

[mechana2015]

Actually GK were weak to 2 other armies as far as I heard, Tau and Guard, (no psykers/daemons + tons of guns to focus fire on the 25 or so guys most GK armies consisted of). I was in games though so most of my thought on that are hearsay and math-hammer. Our nids player in the local group switched to GK at the time so I never heard how they managed against each other, so thats interesting to hear.

Hilariously I hear a lot about Nids being Underpowered AND OP in 6th, though I think since we've heard that for nearly everyone but Daemons so far, it might be possible to say they're finally reaching something resembling a balance point?

[Peanut]

I think it has to do with play style. Genestealer heavy lists are awful now, so if you played that in 5th edition you are likely going to think Tyranids are pretty bad. The Nid Psychic Choir seems to be really good. At 2000 points you can get up to 33 psychic powers in your list which translates to 33 rolls in one of the new psychic disciplines. Because of this, you can essentially tailor your list legally before every match-up. See your opponent taking fliers? Make your initial rolls in Telekinesis and shoot for Objuration Mechanicum which inflicts Haywire on vehicles. Facing lots of Space Marines or Space Marine like units? Take powers from Biomancy to get Enfeeble, cast it over and over and watch as you double them out with the Termagants basic gun. I haven't even begun to sing the praises of Tervigons with Iron Arm, Warp Speed, and Crushing Claws. Those things will absolutely wreck you in close combat and don't die to almost anything. Doom of Malantai with Iron Arm is literally the most trollish unit on the face of the planet since it will never die no matter what you try to do to it. OH, and if you like the Swarmlord, imagine the Swarmlord with shrouded, stealth, immunity to counter-attack, and, if it gets into assault, makes the opposing unit count as weapon skill 1. So yeah, the new psychic powers for Nids are pretty good.

[mechana2015]

Allright, I got my codex and I've read through it. I'll be coming up with a more complete commentary on it later when I'm not exhausted but I will say - it's good. I'm really pleased with the changes and disappointed with very little. Our new wargear is pretty great, and reaffirms our role as a premier shooting army, and didn't try to enhance our actual melee much, just our ability to attempt to avoid or mitigate it. I've also long griped about there being a lack of AOE weapons, and this has been fixed in a a rather massive way.

[Yamamaya]

Okay guys, something crazy is going down with GW.
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/04/ ... at-gw.html